The NHS should not be above criticism.

Asa Patient in a stroke ward I found some staff to be overworked and less companionate than they should have been it was a horrific journey for me which was daily recorded in my iPad in as much I’ve raised a formal complaint with the nhs and perhaps those in higher places will look into why this was so - institutional abuse comes to mind now who has the answers and the solutions please advise you clever gransnetters

Heaven help anyone who needs dental care?

I think you're so focussed on blaming the Tory government for every conceivable problem trisher that you've missed the point entirely this time. Irrespective of which political party has been in government, and irrespective of how much money that government has allocated to the NHS; it is each NHS Trust who manages and redistribute that money. The argument here is that NHS Trusts have created a hierarchy of beaurocracy and middle management roles which are diverting funds away from clinical and nursing costs, which is where it is needed. It is their decision as to where they use that government funding. And they're choosing to spend far too much of it on quangos, admin and middle managers. And that's been the case with both the Tories and Labour government.

Time to give that boring old ‘those pesky tories’ line, a rest
trisher....and in any case, it has nothing to do with the OP.

Could I also just point out that surgery for cleft palate is NOT cosmetic. Integrity of the palate is essential for safe effective suckling and operations are often performed days after birth along with any lip involvement if necessary.
Going back to the OP, this would be a great time to reflect on not only the truly magnificent things about the NHS but also to look at what needs to change. Putting the whole NHS on a pedestal because the response to the pandemic hasn't overwhelmed the service will not allow for future improvement that is much needed.

GrannyLaine I did not say cleft palate surgery was cosmetic. I said that some surgery may involved at a later date which might be CONSIDERED cosmetic. This depends upon the degree of `abnormality and can go on into years of surgical treatment including some that can only be done when the child reaches maturity.
As for those commenting about dental treatment you do know that dentists are not part of the NHS and that this is a problem that has been building up for years ^In England in 2019 over 2 million people were missing out on dental treatment. It is estimated that 1.45 million have tried and were unable to get an NHS appointment, others are on waiting lists (0.13 million) or cost discourages them (0.73 million). A further 2 million believ
e they cannot get a dentist where they live, making it likely that almost one in ten people cannot get a dentist. Dave Cottam of the British Dental Association said there was a, "perfect storm" of failed contracts, recruitment problems and underfunding. Cottam added, "These access problems are no longer affecting a few 'hotspots', but are now the reality for millions across every English region. The public are entitled to access care, but the system is stacked against them. Those losing out are the patients who need us most." The British Dental Association maintains there are serious problems over access to dental treatment in Wales, and similar problems exist on a smaller scale in Northern Ireland and Scotland.^
It's the result of a service which has been massively underfunded for years and possibly what we will see if the underfunding of the NHS continues but on a much wider scale.

Sorry trisher but on the subject of cleft palate you are incorrect. The palate is not visible externally, but is a functional part of the mouth affecting eating, drinking and breathing. Surgery to the palate is most assuredly not cosmetic at any stage.

GrannyLaine from the NHS website
birth to 6 weeks – feeding assistance, support for parents, hearing tests and paediatric assessment
3 to 6 months – surgery to repair a cleft lip
6 to 12 months – surgery to repair a cleft palate
18 months – speech assessment
3 years – speech assessment
5 years – speech assessment
8 to 12 years – bone graft to repair a cleft in the gum area
12 to 15 years – orthodontic treatment and monitoring jaw growth
Your child will also need to attend regular outpatient appointments at a cleft centre so their condition can be monitored closely and any problems can be dealt with.

These will usually be recommended until they're around 21 years of age, when they're likely to have stopped growing.

As I said my DS had a lovely friend who went through this. It isn't always very complicated but his was and it caused him much distress. His appearance was "different"and needed intervention. I didn't say it was cosmetic I said it might be considered as such and certainly cosmetic work feeds into the treatment, as work on cleft palate feeds into cosmetic surgery. Developments in surgical treatment are always impacting on other fields.

The NHS is not functioning. Elective surgery is cancelled & dentistry is unavailable, causing untold hardship and misery to many. Theowlandthepussycat1 Wed 20-May-20 07:56:51

Which country has a health service which is fully functioning at the moment? Are you being unreasonable? Yes, if you expect any system to be running as normal and coping with a pandemic. Which would you rather they cancelled? The treatment for Covid or elective surgery? No country was set up to deal with both all the time, just in case, and sadly our government appears to have failed as have other governments have. Ours just seems to be going for the prize for greatest failure. Let's hope they are somehow stopped from achieving it.

thank you @trisher for all that wealth of information. I have delivered and given early days support to many such babies. A "different" appearance will be as a result of a cleft lip which may or may not accompany a cleft palate. There is a difference.

I apologise for not knowing the finer details Grannylaine I really didn't go into that with my DSs friend I just know that many would have imagined he looked OK ,if a little different, and that some would no doubt have decided that NHS surgery wasn't necessary to improve his appearance.

trisher I remember like it was yesterday the first little baby I delivered with cleft lip and palate - they weren't picked up by scan then. I was so shocked but had to keep my head and help the parents to understand. They took the trouble to bring him to show me after he had had his first corrective surgery and it was truly amazing - even at that early stage, you could hardly tell. I hope it was the same for your friends little one.
Sorry everyone, I know this is a bit off topic to the OP

I can understand why people are nervous of going into hospital just now, and I can also understand why 'non-essential' operations have been postponed, although at massive cost to the people who are waiting in pain.

Where I am less clear, however, is why there are so many cancelled outpatient clinic appointments that could lead to a rush later on, or worse, a need for treatments of things that could have been nipped in the bud.

I have had an ECG, a routine but important appointment with an endocrinologist and an ultrasound cancelled. All would have been exploratory appointments, and I still don't know what they may have found. As well as that, I have pernicious anaemia, and have had my quarterly injection cancelled. This means that I am exhausted, forgetful and have various other symptoms, and my immune system is low.

Ordinarily, I am not much of a 'drain' on the NHS, but if all of these things lead to worst case scenarios, that could change, and I will be one of many patients who will need to at least have consultations when the virus has passed. I am in limbo just now, as will be thousands of others.

I am not a medic of any description, but it seems to me sensible to move Covid patients to Nightingale hospitals, and free up the existing ones for routine diagnostics and treatments. Wouldn't that save time, stress and possibly money down the line?

Doodledog I think one of the main problems is that nurses were shifted to other areas to try and keep the hospitals working to full capacity. It might I suppose be possible to run clinics without them the trouble being there is no plan to help do that.
As for the Nightingales I understood that was a lack of nurses too.
GrannyLaine unfortunately he went through some difficult teenage years when he needed lots of help. Appearance matters so much then doesn't it?

You still need the staff, Doodledog, which is why it would be hard to shift everyone to the Nightingales. Many staff have been ‘repurposed’ to work in CV areas, leaving mostly junior staff to hold the fort, plus there the ones who have been taken ill themselves. Hospitals also may not want to draw down on their stocks of PPE for non-urgent cases.

It’s not all bad, though. My dd is a newly qualified-doctor and at her hospital some urgent and elective work is still taking place. Also, one complete department has been shifted to a private hospital so that routine ops can still take place.

I know it’s upsetting, as I’m on a waiting list too, but all we can do is hope the end is in sight now, as the Covid numbers come down.

It genuinely scares me that people on this site don’t do their research before posting. The NHS is going through one of the hardest times in its history, starved of funding for the last 10 years, lowest management and administrative costs in Europe for a health system, lowest clinical staff numbers, told by the Government to cancel and prioritise Covid cases above all else , despite concerns being expressed by all staff in the system from day 1 about the wisdom of cancelling urgent cases. It would genuinely do some people good to be a fly on the wall and see what actually happens - but as that can’t happen, please at least check your facts before you post and remember we get what we pay for, blaming people in the system for its ills achieves nothing other than making us even more demoralised, when we are all trying so hard. I thought better of you.

Sometimes can’t GN discussions be just that? A bit like chatting with friends? Opinions can be offered without always being fact-based! That what happens in real life. For example, when chatting with a friend over coffee and an opinion is expressed, when do you see one get out their phone and say ‘ooh, must just check from various sources to verify how factual your opinion is’. Get real.

It's extremely difficult to access 'facts', especially during these paranoid, hectic and uncertain times.
We are, as Urmstongran suggests, just chatting and passing on our own experiences.

I agree Urmstongran. No one who is in a position to influence vast swathes of the public and make important decisions would think to consider posts on these forums. I have different options from some friends and family but it’s a matter of ‘hey ho’. We don’t feel as though we have to have the last word, insult each other, infer that they’re stupid and it’s always nice to hear people say ‘perhaps’, ‘maybe’ or ‘I think’ rather than being so emphatically right, which is what happens on here - quite often when that may definitely not be the case!

Well said Urmstongran.

The intensity of passion about politics, Nhs and some other topics is understandable but the beauty of gn forums is for everyone to politely put their points and experiences forward and let the debate flow. There is no need for downright aggressiveness and rudeness.

That’s the way I was brought up anyway. I think my mum was passionate about bringing up polite children. And she brought up eight. ????????

Thank you ladies!
No doubt someone will be along later to disagree with us ...
?

Yes, it’s hard on those waiting for treatment especially for life-threatening or painful conditions but this is how things are for the moment. Hopefully some people can be treated before the second wave hits.

Could all this have been avoided? Well if we look at those countries who got it right eg South Korea (population 51,000,000+, 300 deaths, no lockdown needed, a well funded health service and routine operations still being performed) then clearly the answer is yes.

Who is to blame? Well that depends on you political stance I suppose.

Urmstongran. I think the problem is that we can discuss amicably up to a point but if posters are for example saying negative things about the nhs and another poster is directly involved in the nhs there they will feel strongly about it. I know that if posters are negative about teachers saying they are trying to avoid going “back to work” then I become pretty aggrieved being an ex teacher.

But as the mother of a teacher I agree that they should be going back to work. So does she, actually! It’s called an opninion. We all have them!

Oh dear, I did try.