another baby

I don't think anyone can honestly say that someone who has to use a food bank or any other form of social help are doing nothing to help themselves.

There may well be some who do nothing, but most people try very hard to get a job and support themselves.

It is very hard to get work these days and being told by those who have work that they resent their taxes being used to help the unfortunate cannot make their lives easier,

OP, do you know for certain that the fourth child was conceived after the parents became unemployed?

And reading the unexpected pregnancy thread lots of gransnetters including myself have behaved in exactly the same way. Perhaps reading it will encourage people to have some empathy.

Seems we are returning to the the "good old days' when the Empire & Brtiain were great

PECS ^It was Christmas Day in the Workhouse . .

www.workhouses.org.uk/lit/xmasday.shtml

And your point is, FoghornLeghorn ?

I think it is well known that this planet is overcrowded. It doesn’t matter if people have more than two children or have families they can’t afford. What matters is that there are too many of us and our planet is being ruined. David Attenborough is, I believe, involved in a UN organisation concerned with encouraging people to have fewer children. Perhaps we should all look into it.

"Mr. Marley has been dead these seven years," Scrooge replied. "He died seven years ago, this very night."
"it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."

"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the gentleman, "a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?"

"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.

"You wish to be anonymous?"

"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned--they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides--excuse me--I don't know that."

"But you might know it," observed the gentleman.

"It's not my business," Scrooge returned.

God bless you everyone!

Chewbacca

^Why not? It’s the truth.^

Only in a distorted, dystopian world.

It’s an indisputable fact. Not all today’s children will grow up to be useful, productive members of society. Some will inevitably be criminals. How can you possibly deny this?

I'm sure that was very effective, and a good solution if you knew that you didn't, and never would, want more children, or any at all.

For someone who isn't sure of that it's less than ideal, though.

And what about someone who is a few months into a much wanted pregnancy when she loses her job? Or loses her husband?

Or someone who wants children later, when she can 'afford' them, so doesn't get sterilised, but then finds she is pregnant sooner than she expected?

If people have sex, women will get pregnant. It was ever thus, regardless of advances in contraception. Unless you want to somehow ban sex (an impossibility, even for those who consider it a good thing to do), there will always be babies who come along at inconvenient times.

Making the lives of those babies more difficult, or shaming their mothers might make some people feel better in some way, but it won't cut their numbers, and it won't make them better members of society - if anything it will curtail their life chances and increase the likelihood that they will become the next generation of unemployed. Plus, it is cruel and unfair.

Hetty58. The method of contraception I used has zero failure rate. It was sterilisation.

Tiny cut inside my naval under local anaesthetic home in half an hour a bit of shoulder pain the next day. Simple.

It was 40 years ago so should be even easier today.

Why not? It’s the truth.

Only in a distorted, dystopian world.

Chewbacca

I honestly don't know where to even begin with that FoghornLeghorn.

Why not? It’s the truth.

I think it is wrong to try to dictate how many children people have but, if I was struggling, I must admit I would make a big effort to limit the size of my family.

Some people will have been in secure employment before the pandemic. They didn't know they would fall on hard times.

I wouldn't want the work of too many children either but we are all different. Some people thrive on it.

Paddyanne I totally agree with your post.

Sorry for your lost babies, having lost babies in the early stages of pregnancy I can sympathise.

There is no shame in being poor ,its often beyond the control of the person/family ,there is much shame to be felt by those who treat the poor badly.All it takes is a run of bad luck and it could be you.Maybe think about that before you claim superiority over folk you dont know .
For the record I've had more than one pregnancy that wasn't planned...all contraception failures .Sadly for me...maybe not for you I lost them all before 11 weeks into the pregnancy.Truthfully' they may not have been planned but they would have been wanted and loved and I mourn them every day .I expect thats something you dont understand!

If my career was on hold, having a baby if I was planning a family later doesn't seem so ridiculous. (And you get no govt help after your 2nd child?)

A moratorium on births! Interesting - but how would you enforce it? China tried to restrict families to two children, with draconian punishments for transgressors - it didn't work.

Certainly that would give the wildlife a chance to recover, Elegran!

Since we can't predict which will save the world and which will be psychopaths, why bother having any at all?

I honestly don't know where to even begin with that FoghornLeghorn.

These threads make me laugh. You always get someone who pops up to say that other people’s children will be paying our pensions and will be the doctors, teachers etc. of tomorrow. What people seem to forget is that a proportion of today’s children will also be tomorrow’s murderers, rapists and feckless layabouts. They really won’t all grow up to lead productive useful lives.

I don't agree with ppl having more children than they can cope with, but circumstances do change and you don't always know that you can't cope until the child is here. We can't predict the future
But if, given all that is happening in the world atm, you still have head space to worry about what other people are doing then you are very lucky indeed.

GillT57, et al, it was I who wrote what you refer to as 'this piece of vitriol'. I would, however, like to point out that I am in no way judgmental on other people's lives when I have no idea about them, or their backgrounds.

I do, however, speak from facts. Unfortunately, knowing of extended family members, their friends, and others living in what was our hometown, that there are indeed many people who make a life choice to live on benefits, have never had any intention of getting jobs, and see it as their right to have as many children as they like, even though they can't financially support them.

I'm all for people, who have fallen on difficult times, for whatever reason, to be able to have the financial support they need. And I know there are many people who see the good in everyone, but choosing to have a large family, when you know you can't provide for them financially, is downright irresponsible, whichever way you try to look at it.

Me too Gill. Some deeply unpleasant and bitter individuals. People who, if we had the details of their personal circumstances, would prove to be far less than squeaky clean, themselves.

Quite agree GillT57. So many judgmental posts on people's lives when they have no idea what's going on.