A job offer that is not!

You cannot ring anybody unfortunately because that was my first bit of advice. Having had dealings with the CS myself, I was worried about the Wales letter. I still stand by my belief that if you are going to send such a letter it should be explicit that turning it down will mean that you might not be offered a place at all. The very fact that you are dealing with young people who do not have experience of the real world should be a good enough reason but even then, alerting people to the the reality is hardly unreasonable.
Whatever happens, my son will find a way forward. He is ill at the moment but will start job hunting again as soon as he recovers. If the worst comes to the worst, he will be able to transfer courses and finish a year early. There are short internships in the summer if he wanted to try that route or take an MSc but the latter is an expensive option. It may well be that he applies for other more general jobs and find himself riveted by that. His eldest brother, who was a failed graduate, went to work as a storeman whilst he tried to get a job in computing. He has gone on to get his degree and professional qualifications in Procurement which has led to him being very successful in this field.
Meanwhile, he waits in hope that he will be successful in getting a place in Wales which I am sure will be a good pick me up when he feels so lousy.

I tend to agree with wellbeck and Monica I think he should have bitten there hand off to be honest.

I'm confused, he applied for a placement in London, but was offered a placement in Wales?
He contacted and said he'd rather a placement in London as it was a better fit with his interests? So effectively turned down the Welsh placement.
Then when he discovered that there were actually no places in London he went back to the Welsh placement and the original placement is no longer?
I think that unfortunately, he has learnt a lesson about the real world of work. Why would they keep the original placement available?
This is no different to any workplace, if I was interviewing a candidate for a post, and on being o offered the job they replied that they would rather take another that I'd interviewed for, I wouldn't hang around I would offer it to someone who was really committed to the role. He turned the Welsh placement down, end of, you surely can't expect them to hang around while he goes for something. He clearly wouldn't be committed. He will need to seek alternatives.

Former civil servant here I interviewed for a job in the then DHSS and was offered one in the Scottish Court Service Your son needs to take whatever is offered

I think you are being unreasonable. He should have accepted the placement in Wales gratefully especially just now when so many have been furloughed and lost jobs. Emailing twice with conflicting messages - "sorry would rather work in London', then 'oh I would take the placement in Wales but it's a second choice and I don't really want to go there but if it's all that's on offer ..." - that is what it would sound like to the person receiving the email. To be blunt - it makes him sound like the entitled generation that you read about. It worries me a bit that you refer to your older son as a "failed graduate". That is a denigrating way to refer to anyone and I hope he is not aware that you call him that as I would take that as a huge put down no matter how successful I later became and can have lasting mental health issues. Perhaps it is best to let your adult children find their own way in life.

ElaineI, perhaps I should have said that my eldest son was a student who scraped through his first year, failed his second, took a year out, had another go at his second which he also failed and then left Uni completely. He then took a job as a store man and his career took off. My point was not to denigrate him just to point out that even when things are not going in the way you want them to, all is not lost. Of course I would not refer to my oldest son in that way to his face. We are incredibly proud of his achievements. Our disappointment when he was younger was only that he had a student loan to repay hanging over him. We knew he was intelligent but we also knew that he was struggling due to fear of failure and being very immature. I could have waxed lyrical about how he has achieved all this with a daughter with ASD, a wife who suffers mental health issues, having an IT sideline business and whilst holding down a full-time job but I was trying to be brief!
I can see what you mean about the letters to the CS and I am not defending him because it isn't what I would have done; he makes his own decisions. I haven't even said to him that I think the way it was framed was unreasonable. I don't want him to feel hard done by. I have focussed on the way forward for him.
I do think their letters should be more specific. He will learn though and will never make the same mistake. I wish I could post the correspondence they sent because it makes it much clearer what I mean but I do not want to do anything which might identify him or scupper any chances he might still have.

It wasn't a letter specifically offering him a job. It was a letter to everybody asking if they were willing to "consider" Wales as a post. The way it was written was as if you didn't even have to respond to it. He didn't turn it down, he said he would prefer London if there was a choice. He then got a letter saying there were no London places but still places in Wales which he immediately wrote to ask to be considered. He is still waiting to hear.
Surely the whole point of an internship is to see if you are on the right path to the career you are training for? Of course you will gain skills wherever you go but you actually pay the University a fee to oversee this experience and it isn't cheap.

Actually the way you’ve explained it now, I think it’s going to be ok.

Fingers crossed he’ll hear next week.?

In there ddle of a pandemic I would have thought he should have bitten their hand off to grab the place for Wales. It is a lovely place to live and most are working from home anyway. Hopefully he will learn from this, that when.ypu receive an offer from an employer who will offer a job to a good intern you should be very glad and accept immediately even if it means moving. That just shows thr employer they are flexible and keen to get on. Refusing to move to work quite honestly would make me think applicant not serious about work.

Wales is lovely for the great outdoors , but I imagine if you are a 20-something undergrad, it’s not the most exciting option and there will not be as many opportunities for different experiences. The fact that they have vacancies in Wales points to the fact it’s hard to attract younger staff. My OH worked in Swansea for a year at that age and couldn’t wait to get away - apologies if you live there and love it, that was his experience.

To be honest, vegansrock, it wouldn't matter if it was a hell hole in Wales (and it isn't), he would have accepted it immediately if he hadn't been led to believe this was just a "feeling the water," query.
He was supposed to hear last week if there were going to be places but didn't so he is going to write again to see what the position is. Fingers crossed!

He's not supposed to be going for the fun aspect vegansrock, he's seeking an internship.

I don't know what you're used to, what kind of social life your OH likes or even how old he is but, unless he's in his 20s I think things may have moved on somewhat since he was here.
We even have electricity now.

There is not much social life to be had anywhere at the moment.

I doubt if the Welsh internship has anything to do with whether it is easy to attract young staff there or not.

The Civil Service almost undoubtedly has a structured intern system, and know where the appropriate places are that can give an intern good work experience during the 6 months or a year they are there. They will be juggling with a group of people who they consider suitable for an internship and trying to fit them into the places available.

if you are fortunate to be offered a job, you take it and are thankful. It will only be for a short time, and you will come out of the intern ship with invaluable experience with a prestigous employer and your future job prospects will be improved immeasurably. You will know that you are pick of the bunch. Many will have applied for these internships and most will not get one.

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth this lads behaviour is the equivalent of demanding a vets report on the gift horse and expecting the gift giver to pay.

icanhandthemback - I know what it’s like to ‘nurse’ a young adult through Uni when there are other things going on in their lives. As a mum I just wanted the way forward to be plain sailing for my children and yet for only one of my them was that the case. Now, they’re all launched in their careers and are establishing a secure foothold - as I expect your son soon will be.

My husband has worked in the CS for most of his career, but even as a uniquely qualified specialist he had to take a job in Cambridge in order to get a foot in the door before eventually being re-located to our chosen destination of Devon.

Hope your son hears back soon and gets the job in Wales.

I understand what you are saying icanhandthemback.

If he thought it was just seeing who would prefer Wales, I don’t think he did anything wrong. I don’t think he behaved in an entitled manner, and I have many years’ experience of entitled students?

Has he been in touch with the university? As I said upthread, I would ask them to call the placement provider to see what the position is, and take it from there. Good luck!

grannyactivist I did not want my children's early lives to be 'all plain sailing'. I worry about my grandchildren whose lives so far have been free of any problems. Adults need resilience and that is learned in childhood.

As he hadn't heard within the time frame the CS gave in his last email from them, he wrote at the beginning of the week to ask if there was any news. Today he heard in an email that he had been allocated a place within a specific department that is commensurate with the degree he is taking. It doesn't say where the post is, London, Wales or Timbucktoo! However, he is more than happy just to know that he hasn't completely messed things up.
He has had an awful time in the last week. He was born with 9 adult teeth missing and he had a lot of painful work done through his teens to remove teeth from where they shouldn't be and moving the others around so that there was a semblance of normality. He had butterfly bridges placed to fill some gaps and other teeth "built up" to look reasonably normal. He was horrified when one of the bridges fell out and couldn't find anyone to put it back in. As he has a congenital condition affecting his collagen, keeping the gap can be difficult if it is not kept open within 5 days. He was panic stricken that he might have to have interviews with a glaring gap! After being sent from pillar to post in his Uni town and being told they couldn't do anything. His home dentist said he would squeeze him in because it was urgent so my husband collected him and took him back which was quite a journey. To our horror, as my husband walked through the door, we got a message to say the blessed thing had fallen out again. Fortunately whilst he was home, we managed to find an old retainer which will need a tooth removed from it to get it to fit in his mouth so, fingers crossed, it will not need another monumental trip which is likely to be equally successful. Hopefully when things start to re-open, the Uni Dentist will start taking dental patients again and he can find a way forward. He was glad he didn't have to face an interview when his email about his job came in!
So 2 things learned. Register with a Dentist straight away and don't take an email from the CS at face value but fear the worst when they are asking for information!
Thank you, Doodledog, the last thing my son does is behave as if he is entitled...except for wanting a pint or two, maybe. He has always been hardworking and conscientious. He is young and makes mistakes obviously but my very experienced husband who has worked in HR with 2 public bodies was as surprised as I was that the CS should not be more transparent when communicating with their potential interns who tend to be starting out in the world of work.
M0nica, I absolutely agree with you about solving problems and resilience. We went to see the wonderful Dick Moore lecture about Adolescents and Resilience at our son's school a few years ago. We have tried very hard to follow his advice and, as such, although my son was disappointed, he didn't just disintegrate. He started looking for other jobs whilst he waited to hear if he'd kiboshed himself completely.

icanhandthemback Your son's medical problems will have taught him resilience. I spent a lot of my childhood in and out of hospital with a bowel problem, which led to bullying at school, but, in a strange way, I am grateful for the strength and resilience it gave me.

Indeed, Monica. With his condition, which has disabled my daughter, he has managed to play several times in the Under 18's England Hockey Finals several times. He had high hopes to get on his University's top team and was recommended to them by the Elite Squad rep. However, in his last year at school, he injured his spine. I have been so proud of the way he has sought treatment, including 2 nerve blocks, and has tried to maintain his fitness in every way he can so if he gets the opportunity to play again he could. A return to hockey at a much lower level saw his back go again and it is being put down to his collagen deficiency. Although he was dreadfully disappointed, because his comeback is well and truly thwarted, he just said, "I just have to find a way to play at any level I can for the love of Hockey, rather than achieving that ambition." If you knew how obsessed he had been about his Hockey, you would know that this is such a huge realisation that his condition has scuppered him but he is trying to find a way to rationalise it.
We're very much a "You can't lay down and die, you just have to get on with it," family thanks to my mother who might have have been an appalling parent but gave us the tools to survive whatever life threw at us. I just hope my grandchildren have that streak.

I agree, OP, that it is a dreadful way to treat a person, but it is very common. Lots of graduate schemes tell their applicants they can be placed anywhere in the country for their placement, sometimes at very little notice, and on a 'like it or lump it' basis. Worst case scenario, hopefully he can complete his placement and then transfer elsewhere. Well done to him for getting accepted - the civil service graduate scheme is a competitive one and he should be very proud of himself

M0nica

grannyactivist I did not want my children's early lives to be 'all plain sailing'. I worry about my grandchildren whose lives so far have been free of any problems. Adults need resilience and that is learned in childhood.

I also learned strength and resilience the hard way M0nica which is why I wanted my children’s lives to be easier. That’s not to say that they were wrapped in cotton wool - growing up they shared their home with adults and children of many nationalities, religions, cultures etc. so they all had to learn to be tolerant and flexible - and as adults none of their lives have been plain sailing, but they are resilient and have dealt with a range of heartbreaking events.

Sadly all of my grandchildren have already had some difficult life events to deal with.

You sound like a wonderful mothericanhandthemback I hope your son receives his placement, teeth are fixed so he and you can breathe an almighty sigh of relief

Thank you, DillytheGardener, the teeth are an ongoing saga. He has managed over a period of some days and purchasing of different tools to craft his denture so he can fill the gap. However, he is now talking with a lisp. Fortunately, he can see the funny side and he is thinking that wherever he is placed, if due to the pandemic he is having to do the majority of his placement online as many have had to do this year, he will probably live with us for the year and try to save some money towards a permanent solution, like implants. It was what should have happened when he had the work done originally but the County where he was having his treatment wouldn't pay for it. The County he lived in would have done but we didn't know that before treatment started.

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He should have taken the job offered, the CS is like the armed services in a way, you go were you are needed, no jobs in London, why does everyone want to work in London, and so offered one in Wales, can’t see anywhere he was offered a post in London, just that he’d applied for one there. Why should there be be written consequences if job refused. Common sense would tell you turn one job down, it will be offered to someone else. This is the real world, not University where you can choose to go.

Yeah, I too can understand his frustration at not being offered a placement in London, but as he hadn’t had any offers he must have realised that jobs in London are few and far between.
I also think he should have accepted the placement in Wales. But well, he can keep looking for places.