To think too much is expected of teachers these days

Jane Judge, I can assure you that the children I was referring to were not disabled, mentally or physically. And obviously I'm not in a position to make any judgment about their family circumstances or their emotional well being.

Given the size of many of today's schools - AND the classes - it's quite ridiculous that today's teachers should be expected to be 'observant' as to every single need of all the kids that they come into contact with.

When schools - and classes - were smaller, it might have been possible .............................. but with classes of 30+ and schools of 1,500-2,000 pupils, it's FAR too much to ask of teachers.

When I started primary teaching in 1984 I had years of classes with 30 plus pupils and no additional support in class. There was no additional support input in the first two years of primary and no nursery provision. I would, however, say those years were easier for me than recent years. My pupils, in the earlier years, had a good grounding in the basics plus an hour a, day if structured play. Record keeping was far less as was planning. Nowadays teachers are inundated with paperwork, assessments, meetings, curriculum development, etc. Even with additional support in class and support from additional support teachers I feel the lot of a teacher today is much harder. Many excellent teachers I knew left while others who knew all the jargon were promoted!

Thank you Soroptimum for pointing out TAs are not non teachers. We are often degree educated but choose a support role. I’ve just finished work today. I’ve been teaching and supporting!

LovelyLady

Pammiel, yes I agree that was in our time. Now it’s a different generation and the Specialist Schools try to address the individuals specific need to get them back to mainstream school. No mainstream child should be held back by an intrusion of support staff who are there to support a needy children.
I went to see my grandchildren’s class as it was parents/grandparents morning.
What a shock - class of 18 pupils.
4 adults were there supporting the children. What a confusing organisation.
I totally agree children must be in mainstream education but not to the detriment of others. Yes it teaches children to be caring and understand but it’s holding the mainstream children back. I want to be kind but it’s not helping our children.
Times have changed but not for the better.

My son has high functioning autism and had a full time teaching assistant at school, so clearly there was one more adult ( at least) in the classroom. Amazingly enough when there was something like a quiz in class there was a huge amount of competition to have him on a team. He was always the first one chosen. Why? Because he knew so much general knowledge; his thought processes were odd, he is eccentric but, boy, does he know some facts. He was far and away beyond some of the kids in the class. You know, the 'normal' ones. No 'holding back' others by him.

LovelyLady - children with additional needs are not included so that other children can be 'kind' to them. They are included so that they are accepted on equal terms.

I do not understand how having 4 adults in a room can be wrong - as an ex-teacher it was lovely to have some extra help so that I could give individual attention to the children who were having problems.

Good point, Soro. Many schools acknowledge the great responsibility of a bursar or SBM and give them a place on the senior management team. They have to have a say in all matters educational to spend the money in the right areas.

Just a small point, but please please please do not name school support staff as ‘non-teachers’. I was a school business manager for over 20 years and fought hard for the support staff to be given their own status. As I used to say, you wouldn’t call nurses ‘non- doctors’.

LovelyLady i think you should get yourself a new user name.

growstuff

EllanVannin

Yes,*MerylStreep*, at least in the 50's I left school able to spell and string a sentence together. Half the kids today can't even feed themselves when they start school let alone spell when they leave.
Perhaps tough love was the way to go in the 50's !

What utter rot!

Absolutely!

Riggie

I trained to teach in the 1970s. We had an overview of (some) special needs and teach sex ed. We also kept eyes open for any other needs the kids might have. There was no army of teaching assistants to help us, and large classes were normal. Spending our evenings and holidays preparing work was normal as were lunchbreaks on duty, doing clubs, or cranking the banda machine to print off those worksheets!

So while I know current teachers have a lot of paperwork to do, so I don't think their workload is so different.

Sorry Riggie but I taught secondary core the 1970s and in 2010s, and the workload has changed massively. OFSTED casts a long shadow, and there are so many managers in schools trying to catch the teacher out. In the 70s a teacher could shout the door and have total autonomy, now any one of a dozen people can come into your room, and afterwards rip your lesson apart. Teaching was hard work in the 1970s, but in 2010s it just relentlessly dragged you down. Class sizes in core Y7-13, much the same, except maybe bigger now in A level.
I also worked in a London special school when I was young, and it was tough. An excellent former colleague works in a local one now, and the stories of her daily work are horrific. (Most of the special schools I knew were sold off, and those pupils placed in mainstream.)

After visiting a special school for teenagers with both physical and behaviour etc problems I am now very much in favour of children with disabilities not being put in mainstream schools.
During a group discussion every single one of 15 children said they were much happier in the special school with smaller classes, good facilities and they had friends. As everyone had some type of disability they were no longer the odd child who nobody wanted to talk to or play with. No longer the child who was never invited to birthday parties or the one the parents avoided.
It was a private school for wealthy parents but most had attended mainstream local junior schools and were very unhappy there.
Council run ones were closed to save money not for the good of the children

I want to be kind

Seems somewhat impossible though

Nvella

My five year old granddaughter, with eyes like saucers, about a new girl in her class “Grandma - May wears a nappy and SHE’S NOT EVEN A BABY!”

And? I expect you said maybe the poor girl has an illness or hasn't got parents as good as yours who have looked after her like yours have you. Or did you just let DGD feel like this child is odd because she has an illness or has not been parented properly.
The answer to that says more about you than the poor child in a nappy.

Pammiel, yes I agree that was in our time. Now it’s a different generation and the Specialist Schools try to address the individuals specific need to get them back to mainstream school. No mainstream child should be held back by an intrusion of support staff who are there to support a needy children.
I went to see my grandchildren’s class as it was parents/grandparents morning.
What a shock - class of 18 pupils.
4 adults were there supporting the children. What a confusing organisation.
I totally agree children must be in mainstream education but not to the detriment of others. Yes it teaches children to be caring and understand but it’s holding the mainstream children back. I want to be kind but it’s not helping our children.
Times have changed but not for the better.

Aveline, most children who attend special school now are children with severe or profound disabilities who cannot cope in mainstream schools. All children whatever their needs or disabilities are allowed access to mainstream school and that is how it should be. Did you know children with down syndrome were not allowed to go to mainstream school until 1981.

It is one thing talking about funding and how children's needs are or could be met better, it is quite another to start excluding children with disabilities and 'sending them away'

LovelyLady who is the dogooder in the classroom you refer to in your previous post.
The old system - didn't work 1 teacher 39 kids - so many were left behind and left with no confidence in themselves feeling thick.
Every child matters.
Yes there is a place for some children to need a specialist school but not all children with SEN need to be segregated.
Inclusion in school leads to inclusion in society.
Maybe children didn't turn up in nappies years ago but many came stinking of pee because they were unwashed, living in poverty, in fear and hadn't been toilet trained.
This golden age of education people are quoting is a myth. It wasn't the experience for everyone.

The Special schools I worked in in the 70s and 80s were absolutely wonderful. The staff were devoted to the pupils. Some even had children home for weekends and holidays to give parents a break. There certainly was education beyond 'babysitting'. The class teachers worked hard to provide an education for quite a disparate group of children who were disabled by a range of sensory and physical problems. Care staff looked after their physical care. Physios and Speech and Language therapists worked alongside the classroom staff.
I'm sure it was very expensive of course. I continued to work in this field and met some of the children as adults. I wondered at times if all our collective efforts were worthwhile but reckon the children might have been even worse off without us. These were children with severe and profound conditions. I can't imagine how they could have fitted in a mainstream class.

The only child I knew who wore nappies in one of my children's classes in mainstream school had special needs that were not obvious and later attended a special school. I think you need to be very careful about what you are suggesting and posting as it discrimination and segregation of those with disabilities, even children, is illegal in the UK.

My five year old granddaughter, with eyes like saucers, about a new girl in her class “Grandma - May wears a nappy and SHE’S NOT EVEN A BABY!”

A teacher teaches they are not managers out with the classroom.
Leave the teacher to be in the classroom. All this diluting their sill is what’s causing the prob.
School manager is not a role for our teachers. Special needs is not a role for mainstream teachers. If a child needs specialist input then that’s why we have specialist schools. Let teachers get on with their jobs.
If a child is at school and still in nappies, Social Services will be notified, this is neglect unless there’s a medical reason for wearing a nappy. Either way it’s a case for a specialist school. Our classrooms are overcrowded with adults - 1 adult in the class and that is the teacher.

Education is a lottery, even among the public schools. I privately tutored several kids over the years who went to fee paying schools simply because they were in classes where the teacher didn't have the time or inclination to help them and as day pupils they had home to go to. Children as we have just seen during lock down are a cheap commodity as far as government is concerned. The kids are also subject to every political/moral/social and religious fad that comes along as are their teachers. The funny thing is by the end of their schooling all most kids want are good grades and good friends.

teachers are trained to teach. No child should be allowed to start primary school if they are not toilet trained at the age of five - this is a task for parents, not teachers ! Teachers alraeady have more than enough to do as qualified professionals.

@LovelyLady. Sorry, but I don’t agree. The ‘special schools’ of my day didn’t provide any education - they were there to keep the kids occupied until they became someone else’s responsibility. Segregation for disabled children is most definitely not the answer - integration with proper support is much better, both for the disabled child and their able bodied peers, who will learn that not everyone is the same, and disabled doesn’t mean inferior.

Absolutely , Nancat,
I work with 3 primary schools in a Director/Governor capacity , and we have been forced to accept that some children arrive at age 4 still wearing nappies. Yet another job for the teachers/teaching assistants to deal with.