Triangulation /the narcissistic kind

Thanks so much Smileless I am sorry I haven't written for a few days. So much going on with elderly parents needing stuff! My husband's Mum has been a bit of a terror lately , but we've got her a Social worker now so things should start getting better.

I'm so sorry to hear your son looked so different and not in a good way, Smileless. I also noticed the same thing with mine. I hope its not his MH, but it's inevitable sometimes that if you are around someone a lot that has problems sometimes you end up affected too. I will read all the replies and reply properly later on.

Stay strong freedomfromthepast there's a light at the end of your tunnel so look forward to the day when you no long have to have contact.

Yep. She sees me as a monster, but I am not.

I still make her mad because I still push back all the time when I have to be involved with her. It is going to be a long few months with getting Grandma's estate settled. Her and I are already going rounds the last few weeks. I will be glad when it is over and I no longer have to have contact with her.

freedomfromthepast narcissists create monsters only they can see.

"I have read that scapegoats are actually the healthiest family member. "

I believe this 100%!

Scapegoats are typically chosen as the scapegoat because they are the strongest. They will stand up for right and wrong. They also come through it the healthiest.

My mother still gets mad about me telling her at age 2 that I was not going to wear the dress she picked out for me, I was going to pick out my own clothes. Still, almost 50 years later she is mad about that.

I look at my sister, the Golden Child and she is a mess. I would never want to be in her shoes even though, as a child, I envied her because she got everything (emotionally) and I got nothing.

I enjoy being a strong person. I was called a *itch my whole life, even by my mother as a child. I finally accepted that "nickname" as a good thing.

I reflect what I get back. If I am a *itch, it is a reflection of you. I am a super nice and tolerant person with a ton of patience. So if you are seeing *itch, it says a lot about YOU, not me.

My mother was the same. The damage she caused was horrible and twisted. I will never understand what she gets out of it. I stopped contact more than 2 years ago because I just couldn't take any more.

The friend doesn't sound very trustworthy, I would cool things off if I were you. Or maybe just tell her you don't like to talk about other people and see what her reaction is.

That's the worse thing about it Onward, using their children to inflict pain by taking them away from us, not because they should but because they can.

Sometimes they mistakenly think we can be emotionally blackmailed and manipulated and I wonder, if they're shock at being unsuccessful is greater than ours when we realised what they were trying to do.

I'm so sorry that your son is affected by MH issues. Our's is affected by his wife's questionable MH, but I do wonder if as a result he may be having some issues of his own.

He's changed, not just emotionally but physically. The last time I saw him, about 3.5 years ago when we drove past, he looked so awful it broke my heart. We no longer go to the village where we used to live so at least we're spared from seeing him.

Your final paragraph is spot on.

I'm so sorry Smileless that is painful I know, as I've also lost a son. My situation is slightly different in that MH is involved and he had become paranoid about the covid jab, believing that anyone who had it was a direct threat and was going to be used to kill him and his family. I don't know if he still believes this, but I know he felt very strongly and even threatened me to try and stop me having the vaccine.

Like your son is shocked that you didn't beg, I think my son is shocked that I went ahead and ignored everything he said to get vaccinated. It's sad for them, but I don't see what can be done and it's not right that they should try to use their kids as weapons to manipulate us or hurt us if we don't obey them.

My life has been affected by lies all through because I've been painted black by my mother all my life. The reality was that I was the one looking after my sister while she had a nice rest. I'm sure the only reason she was angry and said horrible things after I left home was that her chief slave had gone and she finally had to do things herself. It's sad how she has probably wrecked the relationship between my sister and myself because my sister hangs off every word she says.

Walking away from toxic people, refusing to be manipulated by them you do pay a price- but the peace you gain is priceless. It's painful losing people, but probably not as painful as perpetually being pulled back into endless dramas.

sorry so convoluted.
trying to explain, without being too outing.

thank you for mentioning triangulation.
it is a useful concept for understanding unhealthy dynamics.
i realise that much of my life has been as rescuer, occ victim.
it is a role, kind of a script, to step on the stage with.
i have seen life as acting on a stage since i was a child.
you get roles thrust upon us, look to others to see what is being played, try to improvise, then find we fall more easily into certain roles, and can even get some kind of acclaim,
for providing distraction, entertainment, carrying the show.
anyway it can become a snare.
i have been manipulated by someone with limiting health issues but presented themselves as being dominated and abused by a relative.
which was true. but took me a while to see that she would always put that relative first, despite being abused by same, while playing the victim to get my help and attention.
to get work input from me, that ought to come from relative.
who wont do anything boring, or that needs careful attention and liaising with, respecting others' expertise.
anyway i got caught again. slightly different. she resents me speaking to another helper in her life; so she now tell me that said helper is angry with me. this has happened before.
yet when i see that person, it is not so.
i know who i believe. from past events.
i need to keep my own boundaries. not get caught. stay firm.

You're right Onward begging and pleading would simply have put us in a worse position and as much as I love our son, and I do so very much, it's simply not in my nature and the irony is, he knows that, knows me better than that and yet, there'll always be a part of me that will believe it shocked him that I didn't.

It was powerful because it so obviously came from your heart, it was powerful because is was true.

When our lives are so deeply affected by lies and deceit we're apt to forget just how powerful the truth really is.

Oh Sago I'm so sorry for your pain and yet so glad you're getting stronger without them there. I also stopped telling them when I had a problem because they would feast on it like vultures and actually seemed to grow stronger from my suffering!

You're right about Enablers, Smileless and also resentment. That's so sad about your DiL and it's so sad that she got in between your relationships as a result of her own insecurity and probably insecure attachment. Well done you on refusing to beg to be accepted back. I wouldn't beg either. If you did beg, the relationship would not be worth having because there would not be mutual care and respect. I'm so sorry this happened to you.

I had not realised it was a powerful thing Smileless. I just feel rebellious at best and pathetic at worst, to be honest. My sister seems to have an enormous amount of resentment towards me, which I think is more to do with lies she's been fed than anything I have actually done. I say this because we have a big age gap and as kids I was her caretaker rather than an equal age. It has always hurt that I gave so much to her as a young child, yet she seeks ways to bring me down. My parents encouraged me to look after her and I was always very involved with her until I left home. She was still a child at that point and I think that's when the resentment started. Probably my mother used to say awful things about me after I had left. I have been told by other relatives that she used to say terrible things about me.

Good for you sago

You're right Onward, they need someone to enable them. Sometimes the enabler is blinded by their love and/or is a victim of their coercive control.

Some enablers enable because they are of the same ilk. They can and do derive just as much pleasure in encouraging and joining in as they do from abusing their own victim.

Resentment is a major factor in my experience. Our ES's wife resented his closeness to his family, especially me. There's resentment when the 'victim' walks away either by estranging or by refusing to beg and plead to be allowed back in again.

There's also resentment when the 'victim' can be seen to be getting on with their lives, that they are not embroiled in a never ending circle of heartbreak and pain because the relationship is over.

From what you've posted here and from your other posts, it looks to me as if resentment is major factor in your situation Onward. "I now live in spite of them and everything they have tried to do". Have you any idea how powerful that is Onward? Powerful and extremely moving.

Oh yes Namsnanny the 'but' word the all too familiar iron fist in a silk glove.

I'm sorry it took you so long to find peace and to be free of your abusers Sago.

It’s all so sad and unnecessary, I was the scapegoat, my mother was narcissistic, my father was a violent bully as was my brother.

They are all dead now, my mother the last to go 18 months ago.
The longer I live without them the stronger I get.

I cherish every day that I am alive and they are dead.

The Drama Triangle is such an easy to use and understand tool for people who feel stuck in destructive relationships. Transactional Analysis helps many.

Its fine Namsnanny its good youre able to talk about this toxicity. It makes me feel less alone, too.

As I get older I think family will be the friends I choose for myself. My birth family have shown me that they cannot be trusted. These toxic families depend on having a scapegoat so they do not have to ever face accountability.

I am so sorry for all the awful things you've also experienced that do really hurt. My sister also did that thing you mentioned about the cheap/expensive gifts when she got married and gave all her bridesmaids a gift. I was horrified when I opened mine and saw jewellery that looked like it came from a supermarket because I could hear the other bridesmaids gushing over their designer pieces. I was forced to gush over mine and say thankyou because I could not ruin her day. I think she must really hate me to do that- or think I am stupid enough not to notice. I'm glad you mentioned the gift thing because it's made me feel able to share that and I've kept it to myself for so many years,

I also find that I cannot share these things to people who do not know because they believe that the one talking about their family is the toxic one. Indeed for most of my life I have thought it was me, but I now know it's not.

The labels they have put on me - fat, ugly, stupid etc etc... all my life- it makes me realize that I was just a dumping ground for them to use to step on. About ten years ago my Mother was bullying me so badly when I was signed off from work (with a breakdown) that I almost committed suicide. I ended my relationship with my husband because she and my sister and also they recruited my sister in law to harass me, made me feel unworthy of him.

While we were separated my mother was jubilant and was putting notes through my husband's door (he was living nearby) I realised she was glorying in my pain and getting high off my separation, even perhaps that she had designs on my husband. I began to mend things with him and we retook our vows. After that my mother banned us from Christmas and didn't want to talk to us at all. This is when she turned my sister against me even more.

I have avoided talking about a lot of this in case of exposure but I don't care anymore. My mental health matters more than their security. I've carried them for almost a lifetime and they were never mine to carry. They have robbed me of living a life I was proud of and being accepted for the person I am meant to be, but I now live in spite of them and everything they have tried to do.

Thanks for sharing your stories We all need to know, it was never us. It was never about us. It's all about them and who they are. We have carried the blame that was never ours but talking helps

I'm sorry OnwardandUpward, I've hijacked your thread for my own purposes.

Freedomfromthepast smileless growstuff VioletSky

My Mother triangulated between us...

In the past my sister has tried to go behind my back and cause trouble with my husband...

It's all just a terrible mess, I cant have a family can I?....

I admit, there have been times when I have been sucked back in, and probably been the gossip....

I have actually learned to keep secrets about my suffering because my parents and siblings will actually gang up on me to kick me when I am at my lowest....

I'm so sorry you are feeling badly about the trouble your sister and mother have caused OnwardsandUpwards.

I highlighted the sections of your posts that resonate most strongly with me.
Although, to be honest most of the things said on here do.

My nmother has used my siblings to triangulate me, so that all the relationships I built with them (and my uncle and cousins) have deteriorated to the point that they believe the lies she has spread and avoid me.

She is a little more clever than your average N, because the way she attacks me is by sandwiching the damaging lie in between phrases like ''She's a lovely girl but.........I know she loves me but.... I tried to help her but she was sooo stressed she took it the wrong way.....If only she could see I want whats best for her....'
Then people think she's being reasonable, and dont look too hard at the awful lie to check if it could actually have any veracity.

She usually backs up a systematic rant about me with a gift or cash (you take it my love, you need it more than I do), to the willing recipient . Thereby 'rewarding' the listener and more or less guaranteeing they will come back eager for more

Heck why not!?If every time they are given cash in hand for doing nothing more than absorbing lies and agreeing with a lying manipulator?

I was particularly hurt when she would (still does even though they are adults now) choose one or other of my children to give a 'expensive and thoughtful' birthday or christmas gift to, whilst simultaneously giving a 'cheap and inappropriate' one to another, and even nothing to the rest!!

Recently she's tried to attack and manipulate one of my children in an unspeakable way at a very important occasion.
Which did cause some tension and aggravation, trying to sort out the mess she'd caused between us all.
But Thankfully, because the AC in question is aware of GM's 'peccadilloes', we talked things through, rather than being to embarrassed or too hurt to acknowledge that there was actually, a problem, (as opposed to suffering in silence, and becoming isolated. which is how she normally tries to manipulate things).

She's tried to cause trouble between my husband and I in several ways. What she has said directly hasnt achieved it's aim. But the stress of even discussing some of the things she's said and done have resulted in heated discussions between us, because like most people we dont always come from the same angle.
Although H has his own opinions about the why's and wherefors, he does understand most of it Thankfully.

I'm so glad your husband is aware of all the goings on caused by your sister and mother. He can bolster you and help you to realize you are better off without them.

Oh no, try to put her out of your mind and focus on some self care while you get a break

Violetsky my friend isn't replying to messages now. They made a big statement about a problem she has , so that I was worried- but then went silent. She's done this before and it's just really frustrating feeling worried, offering help- and then complete silence. I don't know why she does it. I have left it. It does hurt that she does this and I haven't made much effort with the friendship over the past year because I probably used to be the one making all the effort. Looking back, it was probably a one sided friendship. Story of my life!

Allsortsofbags thanks for your suggestion. Admittedly, I've spent most of my life flitting between the victim and the rescuer...I've never been a persectutor but I have started to stand up for myself and refuse to rescue or be a victim. It's good to be aware of these roles.

Oh Smileless I'm so sorry you've had all these games from the drama triangle as well. A lot of these characters can ONLY exist if they have an enabler, I've realised. I've seen this in a lot of bullying relationships. Mainly those in my family. I have been picked on my whole life but worse in the last 8 years because of something that happened to my sister which made her resent me even more than ever. Obviously I can't say what this is, but it's plainly obvious to me how much she resents what I have (and it's not a material thing) so much that she cannot see the wonderful life she has herself. She spies on me online and uses any opportunity to tell me what a useless waste of space I am. I wouldn't mind so much if she was telling the truth, but actually I'm achieving something she has not and probably wont due to our different skill set.

I think we just have to know who we are and celebrate that- despite anyone who wants to make us think we are the devils spawn. They need enablers. Those weak bullies cannot operate without backup.

I hope the truth does come out Smileless and in our lifetime. As long as they can decieve others , they think they are winning- but they are on limited time before someone gets to know them well enough to see who they are

I guess what I'm trying to say is, they can lie, try to smear us and even try to convince themselves that we are awful- but narcisissts project- so what they are doing is trying to project their own awful self doubts, flaws and terrible shame onto us in order to try and release themselves. It's like scapegoating. When we see, really see what they are, we can heal and grow- with or without them, because we can be free

I have read that scapegoats are actually the healthiest family member. So, even though it's painful and it's obvious that everytime I go through something painful no one in my family is there for me (they never were even as a kid) , I have actually learned to keep secrets about when I'm suffering because my parents and siblings will actually gang up on me to kick me when I am at my lowest.

Onwards and upwards, I suppose.

I'm so sorry to hear that, you can choose your own family

Thanks Smileless for your advice about stepping back. I have done that now and also thanks Growstuff and Freedomfromthepast for your advice too.

I admit, I have gone for periods standing back and then somehow got sucked back in and listened to gossip. At times I have probably been the gossip. I'm really going to have to change my own ways in order not to get mixed all up in this again. Grey rocking is good. I do it a lot. I have recently failed massively due to my mother having a huge problem that I became accidentally involved in- and then my sister telling me to butt out. My Mother has been making terrible allegations against my sister, but she has done this to me in the past as well.
It's all just a terrible mess. I can't actually have a family, can I....

Ah yes allsortsofbags and the Drama Triangle is a tried and tested favourite of someone who plays these games.

Our ES's wife was the persecutor, who then became the victim and our ES became the rescuer.

As I posted earlier on the thread, these terms when used appropriately can validate what we've experienced, how those experiences made us feel and our reaction to them.

In order for us to be seen for what we really they are, they need to be seen for what they are, only then will their lies be revealed and we will be set free from their false accusations.

For those of you in situations like this, if you haven't already, have a look at The Drama Triangle.

It's a good way of getting to grips with how some people can shift from Persecutor to Victim quickly and how the Rescuer plays into the Triangle and how they switch or get switched to one of the other roles.

But has been said best way to win is not play the game. And sometimes the first steps of getting out of a game is to get off the Drama Triangle.