To think we should let scientific advisers advise?

I spoke to Tony Benn once and he said he and Thatcher shared a mutual respect. I don’t think he would have respected any of the lot we have now. I do wonder what the mood is like in parliament these days because in the past whatever differences they had politically they seemed to get on ok. I can’t imagine that being the case now.

Maggie Thatcher, milk snatcher, but with all her faults she is still preferable to the present hopeless embarrassment of an incumbent.
In fact I actually voted for her (the only time i have ever voted conservative ) mainly because she was a woman. I had great hopes, which were dashed pretty quickly,

Hetty58

Thatcher was also an idiot where economics were concerned - or thought that we were. She compared the UK economy to a household budget!

And it stuck because people have been doing that ever since. Wasn’t she the one that encouraged people to live on credit, hated the railways and sold off council houses. Shut down industry but didn’t replace the lost jobs in those areas. Still have massive unemployment in those areas with the accompanying drug problems etc. All the pandemic problems we have now with hospitality struggling is because that’s all we seem to be as a country. Banking and hospitality. Having a weak leader at the moment had made me forget how awful the Thatcher years were for many of us. The way she turned mining communities against each other as well. They still haven’t got over it.

Thatcher was also an idiot where economics were concerned - or thought that we were. She compared the UK economy to a household budget!

Mrs Thatcher was also a scientist so would be able to evaluate the conflicting messages coming from different scientists.

No, I was not a supporter of Mrs Thatcher, but I held her in respect for her achievments, the only thing is that those who have succeeded her as leaders of both the major parties until today have been such flawed and inadequate people.

We can see our families and party when it is safe

So when will that be then?
This year, next year, sometime, never.

Calistemon

DiscoDancer1975

the government is giving out confused messages

Yes they are...but I believe any government would have done, which is exactly why I wouldn’t have wanted to do it.

As Monica says, people are fed up with it all. It doesn’t matter in the end, how many facts we are given. It’s down to personal choice, and what people believe.

Can you imagine Margaret Thatcher giving out confused messages?

No, me neither, like her or loathe her, there was never any doubt about what she said.

And I can't imagine her living it up and partying at the same time as telling everyone else to stay at home, stay safe, save the NHS etc.

You’re right there ?

Speaking personally - I am not moaning about missing Christmas or not. As Elegran says, missing a face to face gathering is not going to blight our lives forever, but losing an elderly relative or not being able to be with a parent with Dementia who does not understand why nobody is visiting, particularly if it may be their last Christmas, could do.
That was not my point in starting this thread, I feel strongly that if you have highly qualified advisers, it might make sense to at least listen to their advice, and not dismiss it out of hand for the sake of electoral popularity or political expediency

^Why do we all moan about missing Christmas? How many of us are practising Christians? How many go to church? What people are moaning about is missing the parties and booze and frivolities that we associate with Christmas.
We can see our families and party when it is safe.^

Well, Yammy I and my family do go to church, we do not have lots of extra parties nor do we 'booze' excessivel. In fact at Christmas we are quite abstemious.

What you are saying was said last Christmas and when did we next see our families? Easter. In between times DH was close to death after being given an antibiotic resistant infection by the hospital who did his heart bypass.

So, yes we will be meeting this Christmas, last year came so close to being a Christmas with two family members dead because of the failures of the NHS.

DiscoDancer1975

^the government is giving out confused messages^

Yes they are...but I believe any government would have done, which is exactly why I wouldn’t have wanted to do it.

As Monica says, people are fed up with it all. It doesn’t matter in the end, how many facts we are given. It’s down to personal choice, and what people believe.

Can you imagine Margaret Thatcher giving out confused messages?

No, me neither, like her or loathe her, there was never any doubt about what she said.

And I can't imagine her living it up and partying at the same time as telling everyone else to stay at home, stay safe, save the NHS etc.

we can see our families and party when it’s safe
That’s what we were told 12 months ago. And here we are in Groundhog Day. That’s why people aren’t taking instructions from the government. Coved fatigue.

rosie1959

Yammy

Why do we all moan about missing Christmas? How many of us are practising Christians? How many go to church?
What people are moaning about is missing the parties and booze and frivolities that we associate with Christmas.
We can see our families and party when it is safe.

Presuming you don't have young grandchildren who ate so excited

I’ve often wondered this....as a Christian myself, but we have found ourselves in a culture of Christmas being about the mass delivery of presents to children at one end of the scale....to the partying and boozing at the other end. The latter which can be done any time of the year....in normal times.

Many children are excited....my grandchildren included, but there are many who are not for various reasons.

I’ve come to the conclusion it’s down to us all doing the same thing at the same time. There’s no other logical reason if you have no faith in Jesus.

Yammy, we had our mid-winter feast (that's really what it is here) last Saturday (the only time three of my children could be here with their families). They opened their presents from me.

No, it really doesn't matter where or when you get together and celebrate. It's far more important to keep safe and well.

Yammy

Why do we all moan about missing Christmas? How many of us are practising Christians? How many go to church?
What people are moaning about is missing the parties and booze and frivolities that we associate with Christmas.
We can see our families and party when it is safe.

Presuming you don't have young grandchildren who ate so excited

Why do we all moan about missing Christmas? How many of us are practising Christians? How many go to church?
What people are moaning about is missing the parties and booze and frivolities that we associate with Christmas.
We can see our families and party when it is safe.

www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n3116

There's a lot of Covid fatigue about. People feel that they've already missed out on (or scaled down) Christmas last year, so just won't be listening this time around. That's the selfish, childish majority, so the rest of us just have to be especially careful to protect ourselves, family and others.

I don't feel disillusioned with the government, though, or confused by their conflicting advice - but that's because I never had any faith in them (thought they were a complete bunch of clowns) in the first place.

Early last year, when they were making a total mess of things (too little, too late) I was far more interested in Sage, BMJ etc. for information and looked at what was happening in other countries, especially in Europe.

We're still in the middle of a pandemic (well, two really, Delta and Omicron) and realistically, just waiting to see how bad things will be in January/February. It doesn't look good, does it?

the government is giving out confused messages

Yes they are...but I believe any government would have done, which is exactly why I wouldn’t have wanted to do it.

As Monica says, people are fed up with it all. It doesn’t matter in the end, how many facts we are given. It’s down to personal choice, and what people believe.

Chris Whitty is only looking at this from one angle.

Yes, of course he is, that's his job!

The government is giving out confused messages.

Caleo, I doubt your idea would work, people are too sophisticated to fall for that kind of thing. It would be seen as government propaganda.

The problem now runs far deeper than just COVID. Most people see a deeply compromised and dishonest government who break their own rules with impunity. They do not see the Labour party as the answer, it still has not lived down the disaster that was the Corbyn ...... leadership seems a misnomer for his time at the head of the party.

Before you can start to get people as a whole to follow the advice from the government and government scientists, you need first to get in place a government with Integrity as its core principal. When you do that then the many millions ignoring the COVID rules could be persuaded to comply, and it is unlikely to happen anytime in the near future.

COVID plans, rules are now enmeshed in politics and politicians and indivisibly part of the bigger picture.

Elegran stop arguing with the convinced. Most of us are doing all the things you recommend.

But like it or not there are millions of people who are not on GN and have given up listening to this government or the scientists. Like all the people I saw in pubs and shops when I had to go to London yesterday.

How are you going to convince them, that they must keep to the rules. They have had their jabs, anyone they know wyho has had COVID has recovered quickly and they are fed up with all the restrictions.

What do you suggest?

Not the bloody blitz again...

During the war people saw evidence of the Blitz, and newsreels of torpedoed merchant ships . There were food shortages. Young men and women were called up for the fighting services. All of this was visible evidence. People saw who the enemy was.

Many people don't actually believe in virus. The persuaders should commission a scfi or fantasy film or soap featuring viral invaders, and a hero doctor.

What I heard Whitty say is that people are being cautious, on their own initiative, and he believes they are right to be so.
That is anything but 'hectoring'.

Sends out