To think we should let scientific advisers advise?

hectoring is the last word I would attribute to Chris Whitty.

Advice is one thing but when the Government sends it mixed messages such as 'work from home' but 'it's ok to go to an office party' who do we listen to?

Parties? This government couldn't organise a booze-up in a brewery.

Other leaders are listening to the scientific advice and making their own decisions, Sadiq Khan being the latest one to do so.

M0nica

Scientist like everyone else needs to live in the world as it is. Constant hectoring and insisting we introduce stricter and stricter controls, only works if people are prepared to believe what they are saying and eventually, if not handled properly pandemic fatigue sets in.

The fact of the matter is that all scientista are not in accord. We are getting a string of contradictory forecasts and warnings from at least half a dozen different cedible teams, at least politically and media credible, and 10s of forecasts from respectable, but less well touted teams.

We have now been under controls for getting on for two years and people are getting fed up and frustrated and feeling that the time has come when we should start learning to live with the disease and leave people to themselves to decide how they wish to respond to this threat. Those of you who at high risk, may well chose to continue to live a secluded lives, but did you do this before because of the danger of getting flu and other respiratory diseases that usually run rampant in winter? Those who wish to live a more free life, may be willing to take the risk.

As it is our hospitality, tourist, retail and cultural industries are being destroyed. Industries that employ millions of people, the economy is cutback and the government is paying out £ billions of borrowed money to sustain them. Money that will be very difficult to pay back if our economy does not thrive.

I can imagine nothing worse than having Chris Whitty as Prime Minister. He would be as bad as the current one, with his rigid inststence on numbers and absolutely no grasp of how normal people respond to constantly being placed under rigid government and presumably punished for every refraction. Peolple would be queueing in the streets to get through the courts and the army would be brought in to run temporary courts.

There is far more to government than giving clear directives. It is knowing how to give clear directives in a manner that people are prepared to take notice of. I doubt Chris Whitty would know where to begin.

I know this was a few days ago...but I agree. Put very well MOnica.

Chris Whitty is only looking at this from one angle. The government have to look at many angles.

It’s so hard. I wouldn’t have wanted to do it. Rocks and hard places spring to mind.

Germanshepherdsmum

I assume you're fit and healthy Rosie. Many of us fear infection because we have 'underlying conditions' and are outside your 'most cases' group.

Reasonably so don't take any medication visit the Dr every 15 years or so but not all in my family are the same and they also accept that short of shutting themselves away there are no quarentees

I assume you're fit and healthy Rosie. Many of us fear infection because we have 'underlying conditions' and are outside your 'most cases' group.

Germanshepherdsmum

You’re an intelligent woman Rosie. You know full well that the vaccine doesn’t prevent you from catching or spreading covid and that has always been made clear, and that the disposable masks many wear are quite flimsy and ill-fitting, and often reused many times.

Yes of course I know it won’t totally prevent transmission but it will in most cases stop serious illness or worse
It’s now down to personal risk I was with one of my grandchildren yesterday they have since tested positive but this is no longer the great concern and worry it once was. I will avoid others for a while and test daily
There is a good chance we are all going to pick up Covid at some point unless we live in a bubble.
My faith in face masks has always been 50/50 unless you invest in a correctly fitting FFP2 mask

You’re an intelligent woman Rosie. You know full well that the vaccine doesn’t prevent you from catching or spreading covid and that has always been made clear, and that the disposable masks many wear are quite flimsy and ill-fitting, and often reused many times.

Surely most of us have took precautions 2 vacinations and a booster within the last year in order that we can meet our family safely. If not why did we have them ?

Only a small part of your life is spent wearing a mask in the supermarket, hugging your grandchildren (give high-fives instead), and washing your hands.
It doesn't take all of your life to plan your shopping so that you buy a week's necessities in one go, rather than popping in and out of the shop daily.
Missing a face-to-face gathering shouldn't blight your life for ever. Online chats, letters, emails, cards (home-made if you don't want to shop yet again) keep you in touch with family and friends until it is safe to meet again.

Elegran Yes we pay for insurance. However, I would never even consider 'spending' my whole livelihood' on insurance. I spend a very small amount on it!

Elegran there are few on GN who would disagree with you, but the facts of the matter are that people are mentally and physically exhausted by confused messages from the government. Blaming the media for everything is lazy government speak.

I do not think anyone is advocating a free for all, but as things go a lot of people are ignoring everything the government says and we really need to stop and have a rethink about how we do get people to re-engage with what is a discredited government with an even more discredited leader.

COVID compliance stretches further than just COVID to the disrespect of authority that this government has engendered.

And that is a good tangible example people can at least understand Elegran. Jonathan V T is particularly good at those sort of analogies.
I'd far rather be the person paying my insurance and never having to use it.

Yammy

PhilJaz

Chris Whitty and his colleagues on SAGE have been using totally inaccurate modelling since day one. None of their PREDICTIONS have come anywhere near to reality.

Where do your accurate modellings come from? Which scientific paper or correlation of knowledge?

And what do you think their predictions actually mean? Or have you just half understood them? As far as I can tell, they mean "If you do nothing, this could happen . . " but when most people DO do something to prevent the prediction completely coming true, the minority who didn't understand react by believing that the prediction was wrong, so they DON'T need to do anything because it won't work.

We all spend a lot of money on house insurance, because it is predicted by financial experts that if our home is destroyed by lightning, fire, or flood we won't be homeless if we are insured. Yet very few of the people we know personally are sleeping on a park bench, and very city has shelters for the homeless, and dedicated teams who take care of those who need them.

Should we stop paying for insurance? Disband the fire brigade? We haven't needed to claim, so the prediction must have been false. The parks are not full of people whose houses are a heap of rubble, so it is clearly a waste of money. Should we just let the fire burn, we'll be OK, Jack, and never mind the sparks in our neighbour's thatch?

Every city also has a hospital, and dedicated teams who take in those who need help to survive CoVid, and a very large proportion of the population are wearing masks, staying away from crowded areas and not hugging their grandchildren. By doing these things they have made the early predictions seem to have been wrong. But every hospital is full of people who can't breathe due to CoVid

You wouldn't refuse to take precautions for your belongings, why refuse to take precautions for your health, potentially your life, and for all those you might pass it on to?

I think you are right M0nica, that in order to garner support the government has put out too much conflicting information and people are no longer paying attention. The media has greatly added to this lassitude by confusing everyone with "what if" statistics and doom and gloom reporting. I'm guessing many people have already decided they are not going to follow the rules (say at Christmas) if plan what ever we are up to is introduced anyway. I don't have an answer to suggest, but maybe giving these constant "nudges" a rest for a bit might help the average person to see the wood for the trees and to listen more carefully when the message is loud, clear, and streamlined. At the moment we are witnessing too much rolling of eyes and shoulder shrugging at who is going to say what next.

karmalady I repeat, what is the point of Plans and doom and gloom if more and more people are ignoring them?

I am not advocating anything. I am obeying the rules meticulously, but I can see all around me that people are taking less and less notice of them and my trip to London yesterday was a real eye-opener.

ALANaV

I agree with Monica ..its time to STOP this mass hysteria and let the disease take its course. I know a lot of people will not agree but it is my choice.......a funeral director I spoke to recently said they had been prepared for a tumult of funeral requests BUT to their surprise there was an increase but that has now ceased and it is so far this year since January been quieter than usual ........how much of this doom and gloom is being perpetrated by Boris to make him look as if he is getting a grip ? the scientist from S Africa who first identified the new variant has said the new variant has no cause to warrant these mass lockdowns now being done in Europe , History has shown that such rampant diseased will eventually die out ....admitted, it is stated a lot of deaths were caused ....but how many had COVID put on the death certificate unjustifiably ? for instance, numerous deaths from cancer were put down to COVID ...in a way this helped the government trying to frighten people into submission ..BUT in a underhand way they were attributed to COVID but indirectly ...yes, ccovid DID case the deaths by default as there was no treatment being given for cancer, heart disease, etc etc because all the NHS facilities were given over to Covid with no available capacity to treat terminal illnesses ......I despair !

AlanaV so you are a fan of natural selection. So the old, ill and disabled should be offered up for the greater good. Oh dear, that really is scraping the barrel of selfishness

dayvidg

A couple of confusing statements made by Chris Whitty recently. In South Africa, where Omicron has been described as 'mild - like a heavy cold' (the common cold is a coronavirus), he stated that is because they have a higher natural immunity. Here, and in other European countries, which have a high rate of the wonderful vaccination, we are told to be very afraid. Surely the vaccine is better than natural immunity at minimising the effects?

We don’t know that. All we know is that most people will be exposed to it over the next few weeks. If South Africa’s immunity was down to vaccination we would know that we would be in the same position but it will be a few weeks before we know that our vaccine induced immunity will protect us. Probably will but, if not, we’re in big trouble. This virus thrives on complacency.

Also ,anecdotally, people diagnosed with Omicron over here have said it's like a cold.

A couple of confusing statements made by Chris Whitty recently. In South Africa, where Omicron has been described as 'mild - like a heavy cold' (the common cold is a coronavirus), he stated that is because they have a higher natural immunity. Here, and in other European countries, which have a high rate of the wonderful vaccination, we are told to be very afraid. Surely the vaccine is better than natural immunity at minimising the effects?

Plans A, B, C, D...... ad infinitum are completely wasted if people choose to ignore them.

I have been out today in London. I wore my mask all day, indoors and out but I was in a minority. I walked past pubs packed to the ceiling with people all huggermugger and on top of each other, hugging and breathing in each other's faces. The streets were crowded and people were not social distancing.

And this is the point I am trying to make that no one seems to be getting. What is the point of having all these rules, when many people are so sick of the indecision, chopping and changing and tantalising and teasing that government and scientists have been indulging in they no longer listen to anything a word they say and just do what they like?

The government has lost the confidence of the public on every front including the COVID front. I know that everyone on GN is a pattern of rectitude care and safety, but there are millions and millions of people out there who are just fed up. They have had their vaccinations, including boosters, which give 85% protection against COVID and they are now prepared to take the risk.

All the Plans in the world will not work to hold figures down if most people are ignoring them or only obeying them if they are convenient.

I have heard a number of people say, and, I agree it is hearsay, that the best way of ensuring COVID doesn't spoil Christmas is to not to do any tests, or only when everyone is all together and the quarantined will be in the Christmas location with everyone else.

The government and the scientists need to just keep quiet for a while and go away and rethink their whole strategy on COVID and then come back at a time when people will listen to them and calmly, without exageration, without trying to scare us with domesday prognostifications and attempts to intimidate. Cut out all the 'nudges', we can see those coming a mile off, and explain the situation simply and plainly and then tell us what needs to be done.

All the Plans and shutdowns introduced by the saintly Chris Witty and that old devil, Boris Johnston are like straw in the wind if people are no longer prepared to listen to them.

PhilJaz

Chris Whitty and his colleagues on SAGE have been using totally inaccurate modelling since day one. None of their PREDICTIONS have come anywhere near to reality.

Where do your accurate modellings come from? Which scientific paper or correlation of knowledge?

I agree that the criteria are questionable.

In early 2020, a Covid death was recorded as anyone who was suspected of having covid. Now it is any death where a test has been positive within 28 days. Since it is estimated that around 30% of infections have occurred in hospitals, it would seem logical that a percentage of deaths were 'with' Covid, not from it. For example, Captain Sir Tom Moore contracted pneumonia, had a week in hospital and then tested positive for Covid. How many 101 year olds recover from pneumonia?

ccovid DID case the deaths by default as there was no treatment being given for cancer, heart disease, etc etc because all the NHS facilities were given over to Covid with no available capacity to treat terminal illnesses ......I despair !

Did you just make that up, AlanaV or is that a fact?

People with cancer and therefore with compromised immune systems may well still be alive had they not encountered Covid.

You would need to provide proven answers to the questions that are making you despair.
How many cancer deaths were put down covid, for example?
Do you have the figures for that?

I agree with Monica ..its time to STOP this mass hysteria and let the disease take its course. I know a lot of people will not agree but it is my choice.......a funeral director I spoke to recently said they had been prepared for a tumult of funeral requests BUT to their surprise there was an increase but that has now ceased and it is so far this year since January been quieter than usual ........how much of this doom and gloom is being perpetrated by Boris to make him look as if he is getting a grip ? the scientist from S Africa who first identified the new variant has said the new variant has no cause to warrant these mass lockdowns now being done in Europe , History has shown that such rampant diseased will eventually die out ....admitted, it is stated a lot of deaths were caused ....but how many had COVID put on the death certificate unjustifiably ? for instance, numerous deaths from cancer were put down to COVID ...in a way this helped the government trying to frighten people into submission ..BUT in a underhand way they were attributed to COVID but indirectly ...yes, ccovid DID case the deaths by default as there was no treatment being given for cancer, heart disease, etc etc because all the NHS facilities were given over to Covid with no available capacity to treat terminal illnesses ......I despair !