Women only activities/events

Galaxy

We absolutely can form groups that exclude people of either sex, where necessary, that provision is covered in the equality act.

I think is the where necessary that is the important bit. That is not the same as because we want to or to think up some excuse to say it is necessary.

Doodledog

Thrown the race card? Nice word for sex? Is this 1950?

Obviously you are at liberty to use whichever words you like, but it won't alter the reality. 'Gender is gender' does not mean 'sex is sex', although to be fair, neither phrase makes a lot of sense.

I think it's necessary to use accurate terminology Doodledog, I'm with you on this. It avoids - or should - the confusion that arises in discussions because sex and gender are used interchangeably.

In UK law, sex is a protected characteristic, the word “gender” isn’t a standalone protected category, as I know you know!

In a debate, it just confuses things when these two are used in place of each other.

It's a similar situation where 'the UK' and 'Great Britain' are also used to mean the same thing, and it just muddies the waters...

I think it makes conversations run more smoothly if we're all on the same page.

It's all about "where justified" The Girl Guides has won a court judgement to exclude Trans Girls, now is facing criticism for not implementing it fast enough

To exclude boys. This is an example of the importance of language.
The first sentence gets a reaction of sympathy. The second sentence gets a reaction of well obviously boys are excluded from a girls organisation.

Galaxy

To exclude boys. This is an example of the importance of language.
The first sentence gets a reaction of sympathy. The second sentence gets a reaction of well obviously boys are excluded from a girls organisation.

This is an example of the importance of language.
Exactly! Just like the cries of "transwomen banned from the Olympics" No transwomen are not banned from the Olympics, they are just required to compete in their own sex category, the same as all the other men including those with the DSD 5ARD. That few to none would ever qualify in their correct sex category is not women's fault.

Rosie51

Galaxy

To exclude boys. This is an example of the importance of language.
The first sentence gets a reaction of sympathy. The second sentence gets a reaction of well obviously boys are excluded from a girls organisation.

This is an example of the importance of language.
Exactly! Just like the cries of "transwomen banned from the Olympics" No transwomen are not banned from the Olympics, they are just required to compete in their own sex category, the same as all the other men including those with the DSD 5ARD. That few to none would ever qualify in their correct sex category is not women's fault.

This is an example of importance of language.

I ponder how much this type of news reporting is to do with the click-bait 'worthiness' of an article though?

I absolutely abhor these kinds of headlines, not least because I'm gullible enough sometimes to bite the bait.

"Famous Comedian Dies in Tragic Accident" shouted the Daily Mail on Facebook. Stupid me being idly curious duly clicked the link only to discover that I along with about 99% of the people commenting on it had never heard of him.

Getting back to the topic - I think since the passing of the Equality Act it's become important to make the distinction between sex and gender and not use these descriptions interchangeably; maybe it doesn't always matter but, in any serious debate, it should, because we are discussing two very different characteristics.

It's perfectly fine for woman to have woman only groups and men to have men only groups.

Just let people live their lives. It's no skin of your nose.

Most of the groups I go to that are open to both sexes have very few men participating anyway.

Back in the day, a lot of the Gentlemans Clubs, sports clubs etc weren't men-only in their title - they were the only facility of that type in the area, & didn't admit women.

As long as both sexes have access to social, sporting & hobby clubs I don't see why some shouldn't be men-only and others women-only.

Well, the nice thing about clubs like my gym, is that you get both...lots of women only nattering space in the changing rooms, facilities for both.

Jackiest

Galaxy

We absolutely can form groups that exclude people of either sex, where necessary, that provision is covered in the equality act.

I think is the where necessary that is the important bit. That is not the same as because we want to or to think up some excuse to say it is necessary.

Why should we have to think up an excuse if we want a single sex club? Why is just wanting a single sex club not sufficient? I do not understand why some want to impose mixed sex clubs on everyone. Nobody is compelled to join a single sex club.

I wonder if you saw my post at 17:27 on Saturday 28th? I'd be interested in your reaction to this, given it uses skin colour as the exclusive qualifier:

blackwelshmusicawards.org.uk

as you questioned If it OK to have women only groups and exclude men is it also OK to have whites only groups and exclude black people?

valdavi

Back in the day, a lot of the Gentlemans Clubs, sports clubs etc weren't men-only in their title - they were the only facility of that type in the area, & didn't admit women.

As long as both sexes have access to social, sporting & hobby clubs I don't see why some shouldn't be men-only and others women-only.

they were the only facility of that type in the area, & didn't admit women.

If I remember correctly regarding the St James and Pall Mall clubs, women were allowed in them - as kitchen staff... or did they employ men to do the washing up etc?

Also, I do remember being barred from a pub. This was in the 60s. It was a very hot day and I'd walked home from work in Kingston to Richmond, often along the riverside, and thought it would be nice to sit in one of the Richmond pub gardens with a Shandy. I wasn't allowed in. Women were in fact admitted but only if accompanied by a man.

The assumption was that a woman in a pub on her own must surely be a prostitute looking for clients. The bar staff attempted to kid me that it was for my own protection - from the unwanted advances of predatory men.

Kudos to my then boyfriend - he went into the pub later that evening and told the manager that it was an outdated and idiotic rule and that he'd put the word around with everyone he knew in the locale to make sure they avoided his pub. in future.



When I look back, I'm amazed at how men viewed women then. In the red-pill-junkie manosphere, I think they still hold similar views today.

So they do. I used to think they were dying out, but then you get a return via the Tate brothers and so on 😡

Wyllow3

So they do. I used to think they were dying out, but then you get a return via the Tate brothers and so on 😡

Yes, I'm afraid so.

But that's a different matter to the one of having social groups and clubs that originate to accommodate a specific sex.

I'm all in favour of men having their own hang-outs - 'Sheds', and for women having similar institutions.

Rosie51 17.51

Your link "blackwelshmusicawards.org.uk" is about an awards show for black welsh people- not a club or group to join as such.

Historically there have been male/ female musical awards categories though this seems to be shifting to be more inclusive e.g. the Brits. However they still tend to be overshadowed by men and all male shortlists on occasion prompting debate how to ensure diversity between males and females winning awards.

There are on occasion musical categories awards such as hip-Hop/Rap/Grime in an effort to combat systemic under representation but that does not result in balanced, diverse representation however. The music industry frequently calls for better representation of Black artists the facts show they are under represented and hugely overshadowed by White artists.

The Welsh Black Awards event in your link appears to be an effort to overcome the systemic under representation of black people in music awards which I don't see as a problem. For example Black representation in Country Music awards is extremely limited. Only 1 Black artist has ever won CMA- Top Entertainer award- Charlie Pride in 1971. Between 2000 and 2020 only 1% of artists signed to top Nashville label groups were Black.

The link clarifies the event is about:

"Celebrating excellence across the diverse landscape of Black Welsh music, from breakthrough artists to lifetime achievements".

Why would anyone have a problem with that?

LemonJam

The link clarifies the event is about:

"Celebrating excellence across the diverse landscape of Black Welsh music, from breakthrough artists to lifetime achievements".

Why would anyone have a problem with that?

I don't have a problem with it, but then I don't have a problem with single sex groups merely because the participants want them to be so. Nobody is conscripted into any group they have no wish to join. Jackiest does have a problem with single sex groups as anything but an exception, and asked would white only groups be OK as a comparison to single sex groups. I just wonder how she feels about anything restricted by skin colour.
I really didn't need your explanation, I'm not ignorant and am well aware of the reasoning behind all these different categories. My only problem with the categories is why the female ones couldn't be kept solely for females.

Thanks for your clarification Rosie51 14.16 that you have no problem with the Welsh Black music awards- good to hear. I share your view.

LemonJam

Thanks for your clarification Rosie51 14.16 that you have no problem with the Welsh Black music awards- good to hear. I share your view.

As I've clarified my position on the Welsh Black music awards, would you care to share how you feel about women only groups and whether you think they are equally important or should be really rare exceptions?

Depends what you mean by "woman only groups" and the purpose of the group. I tend towards being open minded and flexible.

If you mean a group of women that have chosen to gather/come together for a shared interest- fine with me. For example I was an enthusiastic Brownie back in the day! I have also been a member of a female choir and also a mixed choir at different times in the past.

I am in a currently female book club but we are open to a male joining us. I am also in another interest group that is mixed sex.

I guess if I wanted to join a support group, on a female related health issue e.g. something like coping with the menopause - I might prefer to join a woman's only group.

Before covid closed a lot of these activities I used to go to a ladies badminton morning. Men were not excluded but on the couple of mornings they came it completely changed the dynamic as they were so aggressive and competitive.

Depends what you mean by "woman only groups" and the purpose of the group. I tend towards being open minded and flexible.

The clue is in the title 'women only'. A group for the female sex only. The purpose would be that the members wanted the group to be a single sex group, I don't understand what further purpose there could be. Nobody that preferred a mixed sex group would be press ganged into joining.

Not sure many people are 'pressed ganged' into joining groups- I have always voluntarily self selected as I would imagine most others do. You asked me a question Rosie51- and I answered.

OK if you think you answered so be it.

I don't think I answered Rosie51- I know I answered.

I think the only all female groups I have belonged to were Housewives Register for a few years, many decades ago and, with one employer, a big engineering company who had been taken before an employment tribunal, when a secretary clearing a room after job interviews found a uite explicit note describing the physical attributes of a woman being interviewed, As a result the company introduced a Women's Network that I was active in.

Generally I feel out of place in women's groups. It is like being back at school. Other women are uite happy to call on me if I can be helpful, but otherwise relegate me to the outer ring where all the oddballs are.