school term time holiday requests

Here's my old refrain - 'I got an education despite going to school.' Too much importance is placed on school time, exams and absence statistics. When my chikdren (all now in their thirties) were in school, we had to take our chances with holidays because of both parents' jobs and finances. As a probation officer, I was competing with others based in my office for precious school holiday time, and we had to reach a compromise - someone had to be around to cover prison visits, courts, reports, supervision, delivering training and so on. POs with children in high school were given priority by mutual agreement, as they had revision and exams before end of term, then those with primary school age came next. My four children always came into both categories. Dividing up those weeks just didn't do the trick and some years a few of us had no choice but to take some of our leave outside school holidays, or we would lose those days. Parents need holidays, too, in order to recharge their batteries. A bit of understanding and some give and take is needed, not punishment.

I don't think it is lack of vigilance by the school that allows girls to go out of the country and get married (or worse), Greatnan.
I have every sympathy with the OP, but the problem for schools is about where you draw the line. How should a school decide if a trip abroad is "worthwhile" or not? When you have worked really hard all year to raise standards is it reasonable for parents to head off to the Costas or a holiday camp in the cheap season if that means that the child misses out completely on literacy and numeracy for a couple of weeks? I really think schools are in a no win situation here. People criticise them for the fact that standards aren't high enough and then criticise again when they try to keep the children in school.

I think you are right, mamie, and schools are in a no-win situation, but that is not the fault of parents but of know-all politicians. "Losing out on literacy and numeracy for two weeks" is highly, but unecessarily, charged language. In the long term it isn't going to make a big difference. If, according to the tick boxes imposed on schools, it does make a difference, then the tick-box system is too rigid and inflexible.

Some schools are totally driven by targets. My daughter was told, albeit in a roundabaout way, that it would be quite a good idea for her dyslexic son to be absent on the day of the 'Stats'.
Head's salaries and prospects are tied to targets. Teachers are harrassed and stressed out by them. And why? So some politician can claim that their party has raised standards.
I think some teachers vastly over-rate their own influence on children - a week of quality time with a working parent can do a lot more good than getting a few minutes of a teacher's time in an overcrowded class.

Zephrine none of those days of absence should have been counted for poor attendance - they should be excluded from their absence calculations for the reasons you give. Talis wagging dogs here, by the sound of it.

It is true that schools are under a lot of pressure to meet targets. This is not a bad thing in itself. I have seen how it can have a positive result.
Trouble is that the parents just not getting their kids into school is a tough nut to crack. And there are quite a few parents who will justify taking kids out of school regularly on the basis that the holidays are cheaper out of term time. Which is not a good argument I think. (try telling that one to a teacher and expecting sympathy...)
Meanwhile the schools risk ofsted downgrading on basis of poor attendance. This could put the head's job on the line.
So schools end up putting lots of things into place to try to pressure parents not to do things that harm the stats.
But if you are a parent who genuinely cannot book leave during school holidays, or who has a child that suffers from genuine ill health, then it is annoying to be harassed.
I don't think schools can stop children being whisked off to Pakistan or wherever. They just disappear I think. They have an obligation to keep a wary out for signs of forced marriages - but easier said than done!

I know it is difficult to keep track of Asian girls, but I do wonder if fear of being labelled racist is stopping some people from pursuing long absences. Are the parents ever asked to explain these protracted 'holidays'?

I don't agree. There is masses of evidence that says that disruption to education limits pupils' progress, especially the progress of lower-ability pupils. If you think about teaching lower-ability pupils, remember how much time you spent in September getting back to where you had been in July.
Of course, if the child is going on holiday with parents who are going to spend time enhancing the children's knowledge and understanding then that is great, but in my experience these are not, generally speaking, the parents who take their children out of school in term-time.
In my experience the best schools are not unduly stressed by targets, they use them as a benchmark because they want to raise standards for their pupils not to please politicians, local authorities or anyone else.
Again I have every sympathy for DatDat and I would think the medical reasons would be sufficient for the absence.

Sorry, the don't agree was a few posts back about schools being totally driven by targets and absences not mattering.
I have worked in a lot of schools Gretanan where the heads tried very hard to stop pupils going back to for long absences. In the end as Jess says, they just disappear.

Recording absences is a target driven exercise out of the hands of governors and head teachers. There are national protocols that schools have to adhere to. Take your holiday and enjoy it!

Oh I agree that disruption to education affects pupils' progress. My argument is that not all absences for holidays should be regarded as disruptive. It depends on the reasons behind it, the family's needs, and so on. When my older children were small and at school in England, we took them out of school for a week each June so that they could spend that week in the Highlands with their grandparents whom they only saw two or three times a year. To us that was at least as important and as educational as being in school, and so it proved when they went on school trips to places like The Gower from their secondary schools: they were the only kids with any real educational experience of the wilder side of life. Furthermore, the difference between their confidence in outdoor environments was remarked upon because of the contrast between them and other kids. Worth every minute several times over of their absences.

Actually, to be fair, the school did not make a fuss, but then I didn't ask, I just informed. Plus, I was very actively involved as a school governor and obviously bothered about real education.

One size does not fit all. Schools need to be adaptable and make allowances. In other words, HTs need the freedom to make professional judgments. I'm not sure they have enough of that.

I can't see how a head can say yes to a holiday for a child who is going to get a nice educational experience and no to a week at Butlins. It would be an absolute nightmare for the head and governors and would take huge amounts of time. The only way in my view is to have a clear and fair policy so everyone can understand how decisions are made.

I see your point about fairness, mamie. I do get the impression around here, where the policy is handed down from on high (education authority), that parents generally just tell the school of their plans rather than ask permission. Many of the kids in this authority come from naval familes and choose to go on holiday when the seafarers – often away from their kids for months on end – are able to be with their families. That's why I argue for adaptability. It seems to work here and nobody moans about unfairness.

The attendance targets actually come from the DfE and are agreed with the school via the LA (at least that was how it was in my day). It was very hard with schools who had large numbers of children who were taken off for months at a time and nobody blamed the school for that.
Targets for raising standards were much more complicated and schools would generally agree a floor target, a target in line with expectations and an aspirational target. This was all agreed in a meeting with the head and based on individual performance data and ongoing assessment by the teachers. The successful schools know their pupils really well and target the teaching at improving the performance of each and every child.
And that is the heart of it, not pleasing the government and the LA, but wanting each child to achieve as well as they possibly can.

Hear, hear.

I don't think we are talking about children being taken out of school for months, but for one or two weeks. It would be invidious, obviously, for middle class type holidays to be O.K. (educational) but not for a week at Butlins or a caravan in North Wales.

I must say I havnt come across this problem before, until!! I now have a grandson that goes to school..and I THINK it is diabolicle!! its disgusting..!! that we are being dictated to yes! because that is what it is "dictation!!! my daughter has had to pay a fortune to have a half term break! but also....my grandson has got an appoinment to see a dermatoligist....(he has a wart thing growing right on the end of his nose( yes!! just like the gruffalow and is being teased about it at school! so his mum enquired about an hour or so off...for his appoinment..(well!!!!!! it was like she had asked..for something outrageous! this is after he has had 100% attendance in reception and 100% up to now...) mum asked.."well can I bring him in to get his morning mark, the bring him back before lunch for his afternoon mark? "ohh no no that would be DEFRAUDING the system!! I am truly godsmacked... and the situation is getting worse...shocking!

That is dreadful! Especially if the child is being teased! Complain.

biker they get on their high horses.
Trouble is mamie that things are getting tighter all the time. More pressure on. Specially if you are "below target". The days of a nice amicable negotiation with the LA are fast disappearing. Before a year or two is out all secondaries and an awful lot of primaries are going to be academies. Our LA is reduced to a skeleton compared to 2 years ago.

Yes Jess I know from my former colleagues how awful it is and how much real expertise has been lost from LAs. The academy thing makes me cross, because the children are the same, the teachers are the same, I fail to see how getting a posh blazer and a fancy name will change anything. School improvement should be measured and consistent, not changing every five minutes.

What worries me Mamie is how they are going to recruit heads for "difficult" schools i.e. working class parents who don't have their kids coached for exams.
Why on earth would anyone want such a job - they are constantly told they are not doing well enough, even when steadily improving school.

The fact is that some schools have great difficulty in recruiting a Head - an experienced teacher with a promoted post may well think the stress of being a Head is just not worth the extra salary.

Hi, I've just joined Gransnet but not being a Gran myself, as we are now caught up in this whole holiday situation and just wanted advice and a bit of support really! I would never, and have never, contemplated taking my two children out of school before. But, this year we decided to go for a 'SUN' holiday, as in The Sun newspaper, as it was cheap and we haven't had a family holiday for 3 years. As some of you may know you have to offer 5 chosen dates on the booking form. All our first dates were obviously half term breaks and the last one was 16th July, which is the last week of term before the schools break for the summer holiday. Guess which date we were given??! This annoyed me as I was never a supporter of term holidays before, but now we are caught up in it I can see a different view.

My husband and I are Carers, we have two guys with learning disabilities that live with us. As you can imagine planning anything is somewhat a military operation. We HAVE to work around getting cover for the guys, who themselves get taken on holiday by their families or their day care placements. So off I went to get the obligatory school holiday form and put down the dates as 16th July, coming back 5th Sept. No disruption to the class as they wouldn't be coming back into work they would need to catch up on. And my reasons for absence were that we had no control over the dates given to us, and I hoped he would take into consideration that we had never done this before, had no intention of doing it again, and as it would be the last week before they broke up anyway I really couldn't see it affecting their education. They are nearly 5 and 10 years old. It took 3 days for my form to come back as UNAUTHORISED.

This morning I spoke to the Deputy Head in the playground and she was very adament that nothing could be reversed, and that indeed my children didn't comply with our county's criteria. I beg to differ so am now waiting to get an appointment with the headmaster. On the front of the holiday form it is stated that the following will be taken into account: time of year/term, as I've said this is not a mid-term disruption; preparation for tests/exams, there are none; any actual tests/exams, of which there are none; child's previous attendance record, is exemplary! Apart from illness they have never missed a day's schooling and they are always on time in the morning. The Deputy Head said to me the only 'exceptional circumstances' the school would consider is the funeral of a family member. At no point on the form is this pointed out and to our family this is an exceptional circumstance. We can't have made it clearer that we have no intention of being a repeat offender. And I am livid that my parenting decisions have now been threatened with a fine of £100!! Our son is with the SEN department of the school, and we have always been co-operative and never given the school any trouble before, but I'm afraid this time I feel we have to make a stand and fight for what we believe in.

Tomorrow morning we have to tell our 58 year old Down's Syndrome guy that his sister has died. We don't know how he is going to react. I'd like to see them do what we have to do and then be told they can't go on holiday without being fined! Being Carers is a whole differnt issue, but when you do this job and haven't had an increase in wages for the past 5 years I will not be told that we have to pay more, and to who and for what?, for having some family respite. This is not a package holiday that some people would say they would rather pay the £100 than an extra £1000 for going away out of school hours. This is an affordable option set up by a national newspaper to help families have a decent break, and to be told we have to pay a penalty is disgraceful.

I would like to ask if everyone that has still taken their term time holidays on here have actually refused to pay the fine, and if so what happened. Or have you all paid it?

Thanks very much, hope to hear back from some of you.

Go on your holiday, you need and deserve it. Everyone knows the last week of the summer term is nothing but games anyway.
My best wishes to you.

You put your case so eloquently, and I think you should be supported to take your holiday. The head teacher has discretion to authorise the holiday and should do so. A bit of give and take is needed here - I imagine if they were in your shoes they would agree.