And here's one you stroked last year........

I shouldn't have put that . But it was meant to be to me (iyswim).

I was only referring to my anthopromorphic-ising (sp ) Ariadne! Not yours!

Sorry. Didn't express myself well.

Probably not, wotsup! I do try not to proselytise but sometimes just need to! Each to her own, eh?

And I don't suppose it's a good thing to be too anthropromorphic about cows, either!

I know about the milk thing. I hate to hear a cow bellowing for its calf.

But what about the ones that are allowed to stay with their mums in the fields? Are they just the boy ones, that are going to be eaten? And what about the heifers ( the young girls who haven't had babies yet)? Did they stay with their mums or get taken away?

I don't understand farming!

Mummy cows have to have babies so that:

A) They go on producing milk
B) there will be veal calves because they would otherwise use up the milk
C) the meat market is kept going with the calves that live

A lorry load of veal calves heading for the continent was my final turning point to become vegetarian.

Well done, Jacey. The replies are a bit equivocal - they say all animals are pre-stunned but that does not mean they are not then slaughtered ritually.
I guess it is up to us to look closely at all labelling.

Well, I've know heard from Tesco...

"We sell Halal meat in our stores to meet customer demand and to demonstrate that everyone is welcome at Tesco.

I would like to reassure you that we require all slaughter processes in our supply chain, including Halal, to meet our stringent animal welfare requirements. In every case, the animal is stunned before slaughter so that it is insensible and feels no pain.

Like all other major UK supermarkets, we source from suppliers who serve Muslim as well as non-Muslim customers. Some of these suppliers process all their meat to Halal standards. For example, all New Zealand lamb meets Halal standards. In these cases, all of our processes still meet the same stringent animal welfare requirements and all animals are stunned prior to slaughter whether the meat is sold as Halal or non-Halal.

We appreciate that each individual should be able to make an informed decision. Hence we would like to reiterate that all fresh meat we sell is not Halal, except for lamb and chicken and of those ranges we can absolutely assure you that if you buy British organic lamb and chicken as well as the Willow Farm and Finest Free Range lines, these will not be Halal either."

Their reply didn't indicate anything about labelling the source of their meat.

OK ...M and S have now sent me a reply ...interestingly it expands on the halal lamb and NZ!

"Generally speaking all of our fresh meat is produced in the UK, but for ready meals we tend to use meat produced in the EU. Marks & Spencer is committed to the highest standards of animal welfare and this applies to all the livestock used for the production of our food products. Our livestock specifications cover the welfare of animals throughout their lives - on the farms, during transportation and at the time of slaughter. All abattoirs used by Marks & Spencer, both in the UK and EU are known to us and are audited to ensure they meet our specifications for animal welfare, traceability, hygiene and food safety.

Our requirements for the humane slaughter of animals insist that all animals are effectively stunned as part of the slaughter process. We do not sell the meat from any animal or bird that has not been pre-stunned. Our supplying abattoirs employ Animal or Poultry Welfare Officers who are specially trained and responsible for overseeing the animal welfare requirements within the abattoir. In addition, the abattoirs employ veterinary surgeons who, in addition to meat hygiene inspection, are responsible for ensuring the humane slaughter of animals.

Regarding your concerns about halal slaughter I would like to reassure you that, with the exception of New Zealand lamb, none of our meat or poultry is slaughtered in accordance with any religious practices. The New Zealand lamb industry is heavily reliant on the export of lamb throughout the world. Many of the countries to which it exports have Muslim communities and as such all New Zealand lamb is approved by a halal authority.

We understand that for some there may be a religious or moral objection to New Zealand lamb, so we’re able to offer UK sourced lamb as an alternative. The country of origin of all M&S meat is clearly labelled on the packaging."

I, for one, will be looking closely at the packaging for source...this one reads that all NZ lamb is slaughtered in accordance with the halal authourity ...so would seem doesn't matter whether it is fresh or frozen.

In the supermarket in Richmond, New Zealand, there is a dedicated halal section, which suggests that the other meat is not halal.
Good for Morrisons - I wonder what Tesco, Sainsburys and Waitrose will have to say.

Good on you Jacey if, which will be never, I ate meat I would want to know exactly where it came from!

Last year there was a public outcry in Australia regarding footage showing cattle being mistreated in Indonesian abattoirs. Live cattle exports from Australia were banned for a short time. Trade resumed only after strict, new guidelines were introduced to protect animals exported to foreign abattoirs. www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/120228/disturbing-footage-shows-australian-cattle-mistreated-indo Yeah right, as if they are going to treat the animals humanely when they aren't being watched!

I went on a protest march twenty years ago regarding live exports. It is cruel and should have been stopped then!

I've had three standard acknowlegdements and an actual reply!!

"At Morrisons we only sell 100% British fresh beef, lamb and poultry. None of it is Halal. The vast majority of our fresh beef and lamb is processed at our own abattoirs in Britain . We adhere to high standards of animal welfare. All of the cattle, lamb and poultry are stunned prior to slaughter.

Our own label frozen beef and poultry is all UK slaughtered and is not Halal.

Our own label frozen lamb is currently sourced from New Zealand and is Halal, the animal is humanely stunned before slaughter and a prayer is read.

The limited range of Halal and Kosher branded frozen food products that we sell is all clearly labelled as such.

With regard to prepared ready meals, the ingredients are from a variety of suppliers and many countries, which are often supplied by a third party. For that reason, we cannot guarantee that these products are not Halal."

They've certainly gone up in my estimation!! Was really surprised about the halal NZ lamb though.

Did you frequent visitors to NZ know that?

greatnan I saw a lot today as I was emigrating(for the day ) to Wales!

Well Greatnan ...I composed a letter (with lots of questions) and have e-mailed it to Sainsburys, Morrisons, Tescos, Asda and M&S!! It was really hard finding e-mail addresses for some of them (Asda especially!!) Couldn't find one for the Co-op. Oh ...forgot Waitrose (don't have one near me now)

I shall now wait and see ...but will not hold my breath.

Thanx for that Anagram. Perhaps that's something I could ask my MP about ...seeing that he has not asked anything about the budget

jingl, some cows have to be allowed to grow up or you would never have milk or beef. Perhaps these are the ones you see in the fields.

You see loads of calves in the fields with their mummy cows!

There are always warnings put out, because that is when you have to be really careful! You must not get between the cow and her calf.

Actually, don't go in the field. Go back the way you came, even if it is miles and miles.

Because of inheritance rules, French farms tend to be smaller than the huge agribusinesses found in England. I still see calves in the fields with their mothers which I don't recall seeing in England for a long time. English farming is supposed to be very efficient, but would still collapse without enormous subsidies. The supermarkets beat down suppliers until it is almost impossible to make a profit.
I am able to buy free range food here but I know that there are many families in both countries who cannot. I would prefer animals to live an die in decent conditions, but if push comes to shove I would like there to be 'a chicken in every pot'.

Jacey, I think there is legislation on its way to make supermarkets and other food outlets display whether their meat is halal or not. It's an issue that's been rumbling on for ages....

My mother also talks about how rare a treat chicken was. It was just too expensive. Good, well-raised chicken still is a good deal more expensive than factory-raised chicken, as is other properly grown meat. When we buy cheap meat (or milk, or cheese, or eggs) we are supporting factory farming. My choice is to try and buy ethically even though it does mean getting less for your money. It's better quality anyhow. You can tell that by the taste.

Yep. Chicken was Christmas Dinner in our house.

When I was a child,chicken was a luxury we had very occasionally, perhaps at Easter. Factory farming brought down the price so now it is one of the cheapest meats. This is not a justification, just a fact.

I think Harrigran was speaking in general terms, not just on this thread!

I once saw a transporter truck crammed with sheep stuck in a traffic holdup on the M5 on a blazing hot day. The animals near the ventilation holes would have been suffering enough, but the others? Not planned, of course, but it was a bank holiday weekend. Criminal lack of care and foresight. I hate the way animals are transported; in contrast, think of how racehorses travel in relative comfort. It's all to do with money.

Well, Greatnan this one is thinking about "kicking up a fuss" by e-mailing all the supermarkets she uses and asking them!!