The (negative) power of the word "but"

Eloethan I agree, a good teacher is never forgotten, no one can argue with that. Funnily enough my maths improved tremendously too but for the opposite reason. I was scared and that spurred me on to try and figure (pardon the pun) things out for myself.

No one can deny that schools are much happier places now and methods of teaching much more compassionate but I am not sure that translates into required skills. A lot of young people sadly have expectations which don't match those of potential employers.

I know I am generalising but I do think a bit of tough love doesn't harm and respect for authority, even if tinged with a little fear, is no bad thing.

Sel It must be a matter of personality then. I found that I could do nothing meaningful in classes where teachers belittled me.

My favourite teacher was Mrs Castle who took me under her wing, realised that I was finding maths very difficult and gave me exam papers to practice on during the holidays My appalling maths always held me back in end of term exams (in junior school) and it was due to Mrs Castle that finally I achieved first in class out of 48 pupils.

Thank you Mrs Castle (though she's probably long since dead), for boosting my confidence and making me see that, with some encouragement and hard work I could be as good as anyone else.

It's true what they said in those old TV adverts, a good teacher is never forgotten.

Eloethan I'm sorry, I do think it is hand wringing, well meaning but ultimately, this kid glove treatment does little to to prepare children for the outside world. I appreciate that it probably varies according to age (well, at least I hope it does) but learning to take and deal with criticism is vital.

Did you experience this attitude when you were at school? I wonder, did any one of us but I would say we ended up better educated. The teachers that terrified me were the ones I did the best work for.

Obviously I'm not advocating a return to being terrified of teachers but I think there is a balance. Many employers are finding our school leavers unemployable, not just because their literacy and numeracy skills fall far short of what they need but also because their expectations and attitudes are not those required by businesses.

I would never have damned a pupil's/student's work out of hand. Positive feedback first (no matter how hard it might be to find positives!), then constructive criticism of the points that need improvement. As Mamie says, try to find a positive note to end with.

Mamie that sounds very sensible.

Sel I know it can sound like a lot of unnecessary hand wringing but I do think it's important for people - teachers and parents especially - to think about how the talk to children so they grow up confident, well adjusted and able to reach their potential. Disaffected children turn into disruptive adults.

I expect a lot of us can remember at least one teacher (or even a family member) who was clumsy and hurtful in their criticisms and who made us feel stupid or put us off learning.

I thought you were meant to do a praise sandwich. This was good, this is what you need to do to improve (clear, specific with plenty of "how"), then a return to the positive at the end.

Crikey, are there enough hours in the day?

There was an article in the Observer yesterday
www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/may/19/daniel-dennett-intuition-pumps-thinking-extract, which is actually an article on ways of thinking, but he gives some advice that sheds a different light on the subject of this thread.

Essentially he says if you want to criticise something someone has done (written in his case) first define what has been said/written/done, say where you agree, mention anything you have learned from the event and only then do you introduce the down side. As he says the immediate effect of following these rules is that your targets will be a receptive audience for your criticism: you have already shown that you understand their positions as well as they do, and have demonstrated good judgment by agreeing with them on some important matters.

There are times when we all have to tell someone that something they have done is incorrect. Best do it by giving the good news first and then slide into the problems.

I like the idea of praising effort and I think I will use it with my grandson, who at two and a half is still a bit too young to appreciate it. We are all still at the stage where we think everything he does is wonderful but I'm not sure we will do him any favours if we keep telling him that.

I think that when my own children were small the prevailing mood was to over-praise and I was no exception. I think this was in part a reaction to the general lack of praise given to us as children. I don't remember ever being praised by my parents for my achievements or personal characteristics and I don't think this was unusual. My parents' view would have been that too much praise might make a child big-headed. (My mum certainly changed her approach with my children who could do no wrong in her eyes).

I'm sure my children saw through my empty praise and didn't get much from it. I think positive encouragement is important. I agree that the word 'but' is generally unhelpful in most situations and should be avoided where possible. I do however agree with your point about that sunseeker.

nightowl I picked up that idea and have lately made a point of praising my grandson for his hard work rather than the results. To be honest he thinks everything he does is pretty wonderful anyway, but I hope he's getting the idea about hard work being a good thing.

I'm afraid my daughter was one of those people who produce good work with very little effort. She used to feel quite guilty at school when one of her friends would slave away for days and still not get such high marks.

Surely the same comments could be made but put in a different way, instead of:

"That was a very good piece of writing with lots of interesting information BUT you've made a few spelling mistakes."

you could say

"You've made a few spelling mistakes BUT it was a very good piece of writing with lots of interesting information"

changes the whole feel of the comment.

Sel I haven't suggested that mistakes should not be pointed out.

Eloethan I agree, children should be encouraged to do their best, whatever it is. How can they improve though if mistakes aren't pointed out? Have red pens so loved by teachers been outlawed? Is the concept of marking work 7/10 or whatever been deemed too much for children to handle?

I don't think this kid gloves approach does children any favours. How on earth will they cope in the work place?

It's a question of moderation. Obviously it's silly to shower extravagant praise on children when they have done nothing special. However, regular specific and targeted acknowledgment of good elements in a piece of work is important in reinforcing a can-do attitude rather than a feeling of failure.

Though I agree that, however hard we try, there are some things we will never master, we can still encourage children to do the best they can do. They won't even try if they are constantly being told that what they are doing isn't good enough.

As we grow older, we begin to understand that we're just not cut out to do well in some things, but by then we hopefully have the emotional maturity to deal with that understanding without becoming demoralised.

nightowl, the problem is children will think that they should succeed just because they work hard, regardless of he quality of the finished product. DD and DS are accomplished needle women, without much effort as they were born with very good fine motor control. I can work very hard on my needlework and it still looks a mess because I have very poor fine motor control.

We all of us know people who achieve high academic/sports/artistic success with work, yes, but also a natural aptitude and others that work their socks off and still produce at best a mediocre product. Most people are a mixture of both.

I don't disagree with that Nightowl as long as it isn't so over used that it then becomes valueless. Children are pretty smart.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9862693/Praise-childrens-effort-not-their-intelligence.html

Oh look here it is!

My daughter tells me there is now a theory that we shouldn't over-praise children and tell them everything they do is fantastic, but instead we should praise their efforts ie say 'you must have worked really hard on that'. I'm not sure that adds anything to this thread but I found it interesting

Eloethan isn't this nit picking? Children can deal with 'it's good but' surely? They want to learn. I think more than the words, it's the manner of the delivery. They will still feel they've done good work but will understand that it could be improved. I always did my best work for teachers I respected and often that was those I was a bit frightened of, not the soft touch ones.

Sel and gracesmum I don't think that was what was being said.

Children can still be told where they can improve their work. In the example given, it is pointed out that there are several spelling mistakes. But why cancel out their sense of achievement in what they've done right by immediately linking it with what they've done wrong.

As I've said before, praise should be genuine and reflect what a child has done right rather than just vague statements, such as "that's brilliant". Though insincere and extravagant praising is obviously a bad thing, knocking a child's confidence does not aid learning either.

Oh for goodness sake. How are children to cope in the real world if they are never introduced to criticism and only know praise, whatever they do or produce. I am not all for 'everyone is a winner at the nursery summer sports' or indeed at any age in sport. It's sport, it's a competition. Children love to compete and when they grow up, as they hopefully do, they will have to compete in the real world, often against children who have faced and dealt with criticism and who have learnt to try to win and deal with losing.

I sometimes think that the first time some young people ever fail anything is their driving test!! While I am all for "everyone's a winner at the nursery summer sports, I do think we are not doing young people a service by over-praising and shying away from even constructive criticism.

Just because the "but" is left out doesn't mean you can't tell it's implied?

Where are children ever going to learn to cope with criticism (a.k.a. feedback) if it is always handled with kid gloves? Some of my teachers that were critical of my work helped me the most and are the ones I remember with fondness.

A good teacher will impart whatever knowledge is needed without denting the child's self esteem and without being told to leave off the 'but'. Surely.

I totally agree with this. I'm going to stop saying 'but' in that manner.

Even worse if it's 'however'.