Richard Dawkins in the elevator

I didn't find the last few posts boring!

A new contributor! Hello Jacks

Neither did I. Hi Jacks

It was more a case of 'yes we've all heard that old chestnut before' about where he hides it.

The clip of Rebecca Watson was on television last night as part of a Newsnight report on trolling. Apparently a support/response system has been set up by her defenders to try to deal with it. NB she said his words were ' I find you attractive, would you like to come to my room for a cup of coffee...' Fairly unequivocal. Hello, Jack, like your contribution!

Yep, a fairly unequivocal invitation, which she refused. And he accepted her refusal. Ergo, no problem.

He spoke straightforwardly. So did she. No problem.

Problems only arise when refusals are not accepted. If all men behaved in this civilised manner, women would know where they stood and needn't be afraid.

I see what you mean Bags but do not agree.

If I were a young woman in a lift with a man I did not know and he invited me back to his room for sex I would find it quite insulting. I would wonder what it was about me that made him think I was interested in casual sex (probably with a married man). I would feel fear and anxiety until I could get out of the lift, wondering if he was going to attack me.

It's not an equal ball park between men and women where sex is concerned even today. It's still men who are prepared to pay for sex and still women who get the bad reputations if they are promiscuous.

And if it was happening on regular basis that I was being propositioned in this way I would start to find it very stressful in the same way as I have done on the several occasions in my life when I was targeted by an obscene phone caller. Logically you could say it's only a phone call, so no threat, but it used to cast a shadow over my day.

Or maybe I just have the typical attitude of my generation Bags. I've noticed I'm about twenty years older than you.

Sorry, bags we'll never see eye to eye on this one.

Please, men, don't issue invitations to your room to 'attractive' women you don't know in hotel lifts at 4am, even if she is confident and can give a straightforward 'no.' Don't load the responsibility on to her to have to process whether she is safe or is about to be pounced on, with no-one else around to help her. Until you know how she would react, pick a safer place. Please?

I understand your viewpoint, petallus.
I have some observations.

Why is being asked for sex insulting? I don't think other sexual animals find it so. Why should we? I don't think I would have felt insulted if I'd been in Watson's situation. I don't think I would even have been surprised. Are you saying you'd be surprised by a man saying (or hinting) that he found you sexually attractive? If so, why? Isn't that just normal?

I agree that, depending on the man's manner, I might feel some fear or anxiety in such a situation, but only if he, ahem, pressed his case. There's no indication in Watson's story (not that I've seen anyhow) that his invitation was pressing.

It'll never be an equal ball park if women make a fuss even when men are civilised in their behaviour. Isn't that what we want them to do – be civilised, accept refusals?

I might find such propositions stressful if they happened on a regular basis but I'd ask myself what signals I was giving out too. I'm not sure we can say such things are one way. We are sexual animals. That doesn't give men any 'rights' over women, but we shouldn't be surprised by sexual interest.

I think obscene phone calls are a separate issue. I think a man can invite a woman to his room without any intention of nastiness. This should show in his manner, e.g. of accepting a rejection as in the Watson case. Obscene phone calls are made with the express purpose of being shocking/nasty.

Picking a safer place is certainly a good idea, when.

But the principle of men (or women) showing sexual interest in someone is separate from that.

Might have made just as much sense if she had railed against the consumption of alcohol during mixed events.
Most people do not make advances to people they know only slightly unless they are under the disinhibition of alcohol do they.

Being asked for sex is not insulting in itself, but humans as social animals with life experiences and knowledge of the range of sexual behaviours that include unwanted sex, which is a form of violence, will process the experience in a more complex way than animals, who will act on instinct and comply there and then, attack or run away. None of these reactions tend to be suitable for the average woman.

It's very nice to be found attractive, I agree, and I'm pleased it still happens to me sometimes.

But it depends on circumstances.

If I am at a dinner party or out seeing friends and there is a mixed group chatting and laughing and someone finds me attractive, that's fine. I might start flirting.

When I was younger and men on a building site whistled and called out suggestive comments as I walked past, I wasn't all that pleased, in fact I felt tense. Probably because there wasn't much personal about it, they didn't know me and could only see me from a distance.

When I was 15 years old and standing leaning against a railing in Piccadilly Circus and a man approached me and tried to pick me up, thinking I was a prostitute, I wasn't flattered at all. I had ankle socks on for God's sake.

When I was walking along (again when I was younger) and a group of young men walked past and said 'let's rape her' I was alarmed. I wasn't pleased they found me attractive.

My point is, it depends on circumstances. Sex can be an expression of love, fancying someone or hatred and a wish to control.

The man in the elevator was just looking for sex with anyone he could get.

And actually female animals have a rough time of it sometimes. They can be harassed and even badly injured by an interested male.

Well said, jess!

The men who mentioned rape prabably weren't thinking about your attractiveness, petallus. Sorry, but rapists aren't bothered about beauty. no point pretending otherwise. I'm glad you remained safe.

Not sure I agree, or even if we can know, about the man in the elevator just wanting sex "with anyone he could get". Watson was a speaker at the conference so probably not just anybody. And both she and he had stayed up till the early hours of the morning chatting in a bar...

I know people argue it shouldn't make a difference, but how you behave does make a difference to how much attention, desired or otherwise, one receives in such situations. Seems to me jess is the only one being realistic about that.

Yes, disinhibition by alcohol puts the kibosh on making sensible decisions and giving consent. I guess if she'd been up for it, we would never have heard this story. He judged the situation incorrectly, and I guess now he has seen the consequences of that, we would expect him not to try it again. However, many men have acknowledged that they work on the premise that if you ask enough times, you'll get lucky. Fine, if both parties are that way inclined, but the fallout for those who aren't is that it perpetuates the belief that most men are predatory.

I don't believe most men are predatory. That's not my experience at all. I think that's a very unfair belief to hold. It may be understandable in a few unfortunate cases, but it isn't the general rule.

And to believe so, if such a belief is held by someone who has fairly ordinary experience of men (most of us, then) strikes me as blatant misandry.

No, I don't believe it either, bags. My point was that many women do believe they are because our culture and their own and their friends' experiences tell them that men are only after one thing. Adverts, films, soaps etc. bombard us with such notions. Some of us can gauge what's what, others can't. The annual Fear of Crime Survey shows that attacks on women have gone down, but fear of attack remans high.

What she said, quite sensibly and calmly, was that in a lift, early hours, someone you don't know, not a good courting strategy. And I don't think they'd been chatting to each other. In the park at dusk, lonely country lane, after hours at work - advances are easily interpreted as threatening. Any man who doesn't understand that or defends it is an insensitive clod.

Do we have any evidence that he did he defend it? It's possible he was sorry about it straight away. I don't think we know, so we shouldn't assume he was a complete prick. We do know that other than feeling nervous, Watson was unharmed. It would have been better if she hadn't felt nervous too, but she might have felt nervous sharing a lift alone with a man in any situation, whether he spoke to her or not.

I'm not disagreeing about the problems women face, but I don't think the man in this story is an evil bastard. He took a chance. He may regret it now. Let's hope so.

And perhaps other men will have learned something from the story.

And other women.

Hey Bags, thanks for breaking it to me that men who rape, or threaten rape, aren't doing it because they find the woman concerned attractive!

Like nearly everybody else, I consider rape to be more about power, control, anger, hatred.

I do think male sexuality can be a problem for women. Only the other day I was reading that rape is becoming an almost common occurrence in (Syria? Turkey? I've forgotten) as a response to women becoming more assertive publicly. An attempt to shut them up.

Rape is common in war.

Rape in marriage (or the man insisting on his 'rights') was a commonplace in this country not so long ago.

And there is the recent upsurge of assertive women being threatened with rape on Twitter.

How many men are prepared to visit prostitutes, even when they know the women have been coerced?

Maybe you've just been lucky in the men you know.

I most certainly have been lucky, petallus. I've never been in a war situation, for a start. And I watched my father teach my brothers the proper way to behave.

I agree about the sad facts of rape as abuse of power, the assertion of physical dominance, and "to shut women up"

We can only keep trying to improve things. I guess that's what Watson was doing with her "Guys, don't do that."

I have been following a litttle of the reaction to the recent rape threats on Twitter and am pleased to see that Caroline Criado-Perez will not shut up.

Yes, good for her. Must be horrid though to have so much male vitriol and threat aimed in her direction.

And always the faint chance that one of them will take their threats further!

I too have been fairly lucky with the men I know personally. However, although I do not go along with that saying 'all men are potential rapists' it is likely that men who rape in war are kind and loving husbands, fathers and brothers in normal circumstances.

Like most women on here I have probably had a very ordinary experience of men. I have been very fortunate to have never been raped. But like many, many wormen I have had some very scary experiences with men I hardly knew, mostly when I was very young. One situation in particular where I felt very threatened indeed and blamed myself afterwards for putting myself in that situation. Even my then boyfriend (now my husband) blamed me at the time, so no support there. Looking back I don't think I was to blame at all, in fact all my actions were designed to placate this particular male until I could reach safety. Unfortunately safety wasn't where I thought it was and i was forced to fight him off physically. Apparently I was at fault for giving him the wrong signals in the first place

So whilst I agree that most men aren't predatory it only takes one or two to be so, coupled with the fact that they walk amongst us without big signs on their heads, to make fear a reality, especially for young women who move in the world differently from us older ones.