feeling proud to be British

Those patriotic songs people have mentioned are not what does it for me, though I agree they are stirring – negatively for some people, including me; I don't want to be proud of something that has negative connotations for other countries and our Rule Britannia period does.

No, I feel fortunate to have been born British because we have one of the most advanced civilisations in the world. I judge that on the availability of national health care, a national and universal education system, universal suffrage, and so on, so I'd be just as 'proud' anywhere else that has those advantages, and just as glad that kids aren't dying of malaria all around me, and that girls aren't allowed to go to school, and that only the rich get really good medical treatment because no one else can afford it. I'll stop there. That'll do. You'll get the idea no doubt.

The Rule Britannia and I Vow to thee my country songs make me feel slightly ashamed really. Yes, they are rousing songs. I feel the emotion behind them, but I feel the history too and some of it I'm not proud of.

Just as sorry girls aren't....

Oh for even a temporary edit facility for just after posting!

Thatbags I agree with that a lot of those patriotic songs were very much of the Britain rules the empire type. We could do better these days.

But still rousing tunes! Just rewrite the words. Simples
I'll look again when I come back from throwing bits of plastic at a target to see what you've comeup with.

Agreed bags - "wider still and wider shall her bounds be set"? 150 years out of date. References to god also not going to do it for the majority of the populace are they?
It was great to see a woman conducting.

Thanks, bags, you sum up my feelings exactly. It is time to stop glorifying the British Empire which oppressed so many people. And yet.....I also feel moved by Land of Hope and Glory. Oh, the potency of music!

I feel moved by the music too. Who doesn't? It's the words that are the problem, as galen says. Come on, gransnet songwriters, get re-writing!

It's a plan gransnetters. I am also moved by Land of Hope and Glory but carry the national shame so many of us feel about the glory that was the Empire. Is it time we let some of the feelings of shame go? I'm in no way defending oppression, slavery, invading other folks lands - but it was a long time ago, and it seems most of europe was busy attempting to expand their borders.

I don't feel any personal guilt - I just think it is time that Britain accepted that the Empire was not an unalloyed good for the conquered nations, and also time for the Scottish, Welsh and Irish to accept that what was done in the past was bad, but the present generation of English people were not to blame. I am sure that my dirt-poor ancestors suffered just as badly at the hands of the rich and powerful. What good is achieved for anybody by this continuing resentment?

I probably overstated my sense of national shame in my previous post, because I agree with your comments Gn. My ancestors were also dirt poor. A search of our own family history shows that during the 19th century, members of our family were in and out of the workhouse when agricultural work in the south wasn't available. This prompted our great grandparents generation to come north for work in the mills and the mines. Manchester was and remains, a magnet for people from other parts of these islands so we have links to Ireland, Scotland and Wales via marriages. Holding on to resentments in our personal lives is destructive, and that applies to national and international affairs as well doesn't it?

I think my feelings are very similar to yours, iam. Yes, we need to let go of the shame. What better way to do that than not to glorify the shame-making part? We have plenty we can be proud of instead. Time to move on, as you say.

Come on lyricists ..there must be some of you! I am not musical enough to rewrite the words to fit the music...but am in agreement with bags et al who feel the current lyrics reflect a past that is not to be praised today!

I could quite easily re-write them but I have no intention of messing with lyrics that were proudly sung by my loyal and hard working ancestors and I am proud to sing them today.

How many countries in the world have a blameless past?

On second thoughts, will this do?

Bring me my bowl that's crack'd and old,
Make sure the oven's turned up higher,
And as the recipes unfold,
Don't let my spatula catch fire.
We will not keep our sponge cakes light
If mixing with a heavy hand,
So we will praaaaaise Paul Hollywood,
In merry song across the land!

greatnan do you have any Scottish, Welsh, Irish or colonial ancestors? I realise you had a horrible time living in Mold, but the reality is that much of Wales is very economically depressed while the south of England and much of the midlands is relatively very much more wealthy. Maybe the Welsh, etc, would be more willing to forget the past if things were not so inequitable today?
I came across this statistic today in a BBC article that highlighted the difference in affluence:

For Londoners 40% of children get private tuition but only 9% of pupils in Wales.

That's wonderful, merlot, but would we really want the bearded one's name immortalised in song? Hmm...

Yes, Jess, my grandmother's name was Kathleen McGinn. Her parents fled the potato famine in Ireland. I am afraid I don't think anything justifies treating a family the way we were treated. Would you justify the behaviour if it had been towards an Asian family?
They could hardly hold my four year old daughter responsible for the economic ills of Wales. To turn her away from the birthday party was heartless. Why not just say that most people in North Wale do not behave in that way and it was a shame that those mothers in Mold did?
I come from a long line of very poor people - it didn't make us behave badly to anybody else.
I am sure some people would like to join Anniebach in saying my experience did not happen - tough, it did! And I am surprised that anybody can try to justify it.

Any resentment that may be felt by some is not from what happened in the past, it is just the inability by some to acknowledge the equality of the four countries of the UK. Men from the four countries died in wars, their widows in the four countries were treated shamefully - the 1WW. Agricultural workers, mill workers , miners in the four countries suffered great hardship.

BUT, England alone did not change things for the better, neither did it win wars . Such a pity Cammeron had to end his speech with 'this England'

This is not based on any post, just my opinion

What Greatnan said about I vow to thee has made me think. I always thought it would be a good alternative. But, "Lays upon the altar, the bravest and the best"?

Not too sure now.

Anniebach - obviously my husband and I liked Wales or we would not have taken our children to live there. Are you justifying the way we were treated?

The second verse is beautiful. "And there's another country I heard of long ago...."

Perhaps it's a bit too war loving for these days of a professional army.

Shouldn't a national song be inclusive of all citizens? Even non-Christians!

Yes, Cameron is doing nothing to further equality in Britain. As better people than me have said previously 'not in my name' should he speak about only one of four countries. One side of my family was Welsh, going back several generations, maybe more. They gravitated to the borders and then into England by the 1920s.

A Welsh-teaching farmer's wife, whose house we stayed in a couple of times about 20 years ago, acknowledged that the campaign of hostility to English visitors was unfair, especially tourists and working families who were contributing to the local economy. (She was quite rude to us when we arrived, made my children repeat some Welsh phrases before giving me the key, and apologised a few days later)

We often stay in North Wales, and there are pockets where mainly Welsh is spoken. That's great because it is reviving the language, but there is no justification for being hostile to anyone. We're all better than that!

This thread has wandered all over the place like one of those Welsh footpaths!

But just two points.

I'd love to hear 'The Internationale unites the human race' at the LNOTP but I'm not holding my breath. As an addition you understand - just to make everyone happy.

And whilst I understand the exasperation of a Scot or a Welshwoman being referred to as English I really don't have much time for national identities. My background is English and French and I feel much more European than British - if anyone really pressed me on the matter. But having lived and worked in Africa and the subcontinent and living now in multi cultural London all the definitions and identities seem a waste of time. Just get on with being a good citizen and making a contribution to where you find yourself living.