feeling proud to be British

Same here, Nfk. We used to spend a lot of time in Wales staying with farming friends who worked for the same company as DH. We would often be turned away from pubs saying they 'didn't do food' when we could clearly see people eating and our children would not be allowed in even though their own children were running about. The signposts were switched around, holiday homes set on fire and shopkeepers were unfriendly.

We made friends with some of the local people and they visited us in East Anglia but even though we were helping their economy as DH was a farm machinery consultant, I was not sorry to leave Wales to the Welsh when he left farming.

So sad to read these stories of the past in Wales. As a child our family always rented a cottage for the annual two week holiday and invariably had a wonderful time. I can say the names of the places we stayed in not spell them!

A more recent story is a wonderful one. A very, very close friend of mine from Northumberland married a Welsh headmaster about thirty years ago and went off to north Wales to live. She said that in the heart of Welsh speaking Wales everyone immediately switched to English so as not to exclude her. She then realised that she really needed to become fluent and succeeded so well that she now teaches it at the university of Bangor.

The funny story is that recently she was with a largish group of mixed English and Welsh speakers and so all spoke in English, then her colleague, who had also learned Welsh as she had married a Welshman, was astonished to hear her her speak and declared that had 'no idea that you were a posh Geordie!'.

So, not just an urban myth! The group of women who excluded me outside the school were speaking English because it was their first language. They had learnt Welsh at school so they were able to switch to it - I wished I knew a little so I could discomfit them by joining in!
I must say that eventually I did make some good Welsh friends when I went to work as a temp during my university holidays as I could not afford to stay at home.
They were just very rude to exclude me as they did - but what they did to a four year old who already had problems settling in at her first school was unpardonable. Just imagine how your grandchild would feel if they were all excited about going to a birthday party, to which the whole of the class had been invited, only to be turned away at the door. I wonder if that mother every thinks of what she did and regrets it?

How nice to read your post MiceElf, so pleased you experienced such happy times in Wales. I think much has to do with 'attitude ' , the attitude of ' we are helping you by living and working amongst you ' perhaps explains why some find it difficult to extend a warm welcome .

Our Welsh for beginners classes always have a large number of English people joining , how fantastic your friend has employment because she chose to join her community and didn't expect her community to change to suit her

I have lived in several parts of Wales over the years, and can honestly say I have never found anything but kindness from our neighbours and shopworkers. Mind you, when I was first told we would be living in Wales for quite some time, and that our children would be attending schools where the Welsh language was spoken, I made sure we all had a smattering of Welsh basic phrases. It probably helped.

You know, I think that kind of prejudice and behaviour was not that uncommon thirty or forty years ago in all sorts of communities. I am absolutely persuaded that nowadays people are much more tolerant of difference.

I vividly remember being six years old and not being invited to the birthday party of a girl on our street. There were two reasons. Firstly my mother was French and therefore deeply suspect, and secondly, but I think primarily, we were Catholics and therefore quite beyond the pale.

I'm sure it wouldn't happen now.

I had no 'attitude' when I went to live in Wales. We had spent many holidays there and loved the countryside. Do you think, Anniebach, that my little girl had 'an attitude'. Why can you not just admit that it was a dreadful way to behave towards a child and stop trying to blame the victim?

Anniebach I guess if that particular myth is shared around Welsh-speaking communities, it's no wonder that some people will be met with hostility before they've even opened their mouths. Wales is a beautiful country and it's a privilege to enjoy the beaches, mountains and valleys, so to discover that anyone would assume visitors would arrive with an air of arrogance about Welsh people is wrong and hurtful. Rudeness to incomers, using whatever justification, reflects more on the individuals being rude, than it does on the people on the receiving end. What a shame you feel like that.

Whenim64, surely respect needs to come from both parties ? If you entered a persons home I am sure you would expect to be greeted with respect but would you still think respect should be extended to you if you immediately criticised their speech, their customs etc.?

My post referred to the post from Merlotgran who spoke of 'we were helping them with their economy ' , so not a myth , a post on this thread

A myth if it is generalised from a specific comment, Anniebach. It's a shame that the assumption is made that people will not be respectful, and treated accordingly. No-one likes to be treated badly when they have done nothing to warrant it.

Anyway, I stay in North Wales regularly - it's just a few miles down the motorway from here, and the traffic is definitely heavier going in that direction for a holiday or day out when the sun is shining. You are lucky if you live in such lovely surroundings.

Greatnan, I am sorry I missed your post about your child, it wasn't included in your post on your unfriendly neighbour or two women speaking in their second language then for some reason speaking in their first language when you joined them . I will go through the thread and then will reply on this

My father grew up in S. Wales and we used to visit my grandparents there a few times a year. I loved it, such a change with the hills and streams and sheep roaming about, to the Midlands street we lived in. I still like hearing the S. Wales accent. I have a tape of Welsh male voice choir music which reminds me of my father.

Must say though that when I took a holiday a few years ago in mid Wales I did experience people switching from English to Welsh as we approached them.

Having said that, DH's sister moved from Birmingham to live permanently in mid-Wales many years ago. She has had no problems and her sons both learned to speak Welsh, in fact one of them is doing a degree in it.

You have not read my post property, Anniebach. I said the women were speaking in their first language, English, until I joined them. And I have mentioned the way my little girl was treated several times. I did not treat anybody disrespectfully and I went to live in Wales with the same kind intentions that have made me good friends and neighbours in every other place I had lived. I was not responsible for the economic ills of Wales, nor did I feel superior or arrogant.
I did not have time to take Welsh classes, with two children under five, a long bus journey to Chester College after taking them to the crèche, and studying for an honours degree. I was exhausted most of the time and my husband was not much help.
I can understand why you feel defensive, but I think you are being very unjust to try to blame me for the bad manners of a few of your countrymen.

Greatnan, have read your post re your child, to exclude one child from an entire class of children when extending party invites is at least most unkind, I consider it cruel . But why did you allow your child to turn up at a party she was not invited to?

No matter how long ago this happened I am truly sorry your child was treated in this way, if for some reason you had upset people it was not the fault of your child. May I ask? Did you ask why the parent did this to your child?

We used to have a holiday chalet in Cydwhelli! We found nothing but friendliness from the community who used to greet us with ' nice to see you back' and enquire about the children and comment on their growth. If they were speaking welsh, they would change to English when we entered.
I think things were helped when I persuaded the local publican to apply for a war pension iro his malaria which he must have acquired on service in the Po valley in Italy.
Apart from that he hadn't been further than Carmarthen!
He was very happy to get it!

Greatnan, you just do not seem to understand, in most of North Wales Welsh in the first language, English the second. I assure you as a Welsh speaker if I meet another Welsh speaker I love to speak in Welsh, people who speak Welsh always choose to speak to each other in Welsh not in English. My grandchildren have English as their first language because we live further South, if we lived in the North their first language would be Welsh

I am curious to know where the pub in the Brecon Beacons where the locals switched from English to Welsh is - as claimed by another poster- this area is one of the most English speaking areas in Wales, very rare to hear two people speak Welsh, I have never heard a whole pub speak in Welsh in this area

Checking the census returns anyone can see that even in 1911 English was widely used as a first language in south of Breconshire

My niece was bullied at her school in Scotland for being a 'posh brit' - she was 7 years old. This is now 20 years ago, but she hasn't forgotten just how horrible her first term at her new school was, nor the reason her parents moved her to an alternative. She'd moved to Scotland from London, where her class had numerous colours, creeds and languages and the need for acceptance of others just part of life. For what it's worth Greatnan, I have no difficulty in believing your daughter's experience. People can be small minded and cruel, whatever their nationality.

Prejudice isn't acceptable from any individual, community or faith. I believe it's up to all of us to do our utmost to live in harmony to the best of our ability. it doesn't mean we can't discuss the difficult stuff, and disagree about things but we all have a responsibility, not just some of us. I accept I can get wound up about various topics, including politics and especially the oppression of women and girls but I do try and reign myself in and consider things calmly (well I do try)
Anniebach, I've found some of your comments critical of posters who have commented on any negative personal experience in Wales. I was born and brought up in the north west - I'm used to people being rude about this. When I lived in Devon in the late 60's, my nickname at work was "trouble at t'mill". My daughter went to Leicester University as a first year, ten years ago. She had a ball, but was known as Garlic Bread because we live in the same town that Peter Kay does. We're well know to have whippets, eat pies, to be a bit thick, and talk in an accent no-one else would take seriously.....

I sometimes think we've just got to get over ourselves. An early experience of having prejudice explained to me is football linked. My mum supported Man Utd, my maternal grandfather supported City. Dad was on grandpa's side - this was so unusual I checked it out. This was in the early 1960s and I laughed out loud when they explained Utd was the Catholic team, and City the CofE team. My mother was so anti prejudice, she'd have supported Utd just to cause a stir.

Anniebach, as you seem determined to think I am a liar, I don't think I wish to continue this discussion. My daughter had heard that the whole class was invited to this party which was a few doors away. Naturally I assumed she was included. No, the woman who answered the door just said 'Yes there is a party today but she is not invited' and shut the door. If you can justify that treatment to a four year old there is really nothing more to say.
I don't know what percentage of people in Mold are fluent Welsh speakers - these were young mothers in their twenties. I can only repeat that as their children were at the English-medium state school, not the little Welsh medium school next door, they were not dedicated Welsh speakers.
I really don't think that trying to discredit me is doing yourself any favours. You also dismiss the experiences of anybody else who doesn't agree with your view of things. Are they all liars too?

Wise post iamsixtyfour.

Greatnan, I said the treatment of your child was cruel, I have not said you or anyone has lied, I have been honest and questioned some claims , the one I have always questioned is the switching from English to Welsh, there is no logic to this and sorry but I think it is something which people have convinced themselves did happen , not my view of things but my personal experience and my studies on the social history of Wales

There are rude, arrogant people in every country , even England . I am pleased that several have spoken of the welcome they received here , I am sorry you missed out on this

When I experienced the switching from English to Welsh I was baffled by it and, after some thought, assumed it was being done to enhance the tourist attractiveness of Wales. It did not make sense to assume it was to signal unfriendliness as I was just walking through the town, not trying to make friends or join a group.

What does make me rather cross is when visiting Welsh holiday resorts are shop keepers who speak in Welsh to a local in their shop, serve a non Welsh speaker in English and continue their chat in Welsh. It makes people feel uncomfortable, they do have out of season months where they can speak Welsh for the entire day

I don't think you're right about most of North Wales residents having Welsh as their first language, Anniebach. A much higher percentage of people can speak Welsh in the counties you mention than in the rest of Wales, but that's not to say it's their first language.

In fact, a 2001 census reports that 59% of Anglesey residents, 68.69% of Gwynedd residents and 29.20% of Conwy residents 'can speak Welsh' - not that it's necessarily their first language. For the rest of North Wales the percentages are much lower (including Flintshire!).

Why is it wrong for a Welsh person to speak their native tongue? When I go to France /Spain and go shopping I do not expect the shopkeepers to speak to me in English or to stop speaking in French/Spanish whilst I am in the shop! If I cannot communicate well enough in the host language and they can speak English then it is very kind (& good business) if shopkeepers to speak to me in my first language..but I do not have a right to expect it!

I realise Wales is a dual language country but ones language is a great identifier.