Quotas for females

I once worked with someone who was married to an ex naval officer. He used to come home every evening and run his fingers along all the doors and go round the house listing all the things she'd missed. She's probably killed him by now!

Actually having been in the US Navy one thing my son in law can do is the ironing!

Yes, my ex would do a very bad job but I think it was to get out of doing it again. If I asked him to vacuum the living room he would do just the bits that showed - I pointed out that chairs were sometimes moved!
I worked for a man who had been in the navy, and he was meticulously tidy - he told me that if they mislaid anything it went in the 'gash' bag and it cost a shilling to retrieve it - quite a lot when their wage was 26 shillings a week. He wiped the bath and basin every time he used them and folded his shirts the way a laundry does.
My son-in-law is also a seaman, so perhaps that explains why he is so efficient and organised. He is master (captain) of a huge ferry with several car decks, so attention to detail is paramount.

On the other hand, my other daughter was married to a man who was obsessional - like the character in 'Sleeping with the Enemy'. The tins of food had to be put away with the labels all facing the same way. He was not particularly clean - just rigidly tidy. She was always a bit messy, but became even worse just to defy him.

Greatnan the problem with my son in law is that he thinks he is doing it all - he just gets distracted. Last week he was taking all the old receipts out of his wallet to demonstrate to me that you don't have to have a handbag bulging with them. (As if I would ???) We later found them all over the floor because he'd forgotten to put them in the bin!

I shall be interested to see how my son gets on. His girlfriend will have to have a C section and he's expecting to do most of the baby care while she recovers. (This is the one who was never going to have anything to do with women or babies!)

Most small businesses are very reluctant to take on women of child bearing age due to enforced maternity leave/pay etc. which doesn't help matters either.

I know for a fact that my son does most of the cooking and virtually all of the cleaning in their household. My DIL would rather muck out horses than children.

Deedaa - I think and hope that things are improving, as more boys are being brought up by parents who do share chores, so they accept it as normal. In my own family, I have one son-in-law and several grandsons/grandsons-in-law who are capable of running the home perfectly when needed. They take the view that sharing chores means the whole family has more time to spend together on leisure.
My ex husband was brought up with a grandmother, mother and sister who were expected to do all the 'women's work'. On holiday (self-catering, of course) my chores would just be transferred from home, without the usual mod. cons. I asked him to cook one meal and he agreed, then asked me what he should cook. I pointed out that planning the meal was part of the job!
My sister complained that her four boys did nothing to help in the house - but I had heard her talking about the young man who lived next door and shared the chores - his wife worked and they had two young children. She said he was a 'cissy' because she saw him hanging out the nappies. Fortunately, three of them married young women who soon whipped them into shape! The fourth remains a dinosaur, like his father.

I am sure all Gransnetters who have brought up sons made sure they were capable of looking after themselves and also expected to share in the chores!

Thanks Geraldine

Men taking responsibility for children is a great idea - but does it work? Now my daughter is back at work and her husband is at home with the children she is still having to come home and do all the things he has "forgotten". The washing is done but sits around wet because he forgets to hang it up, meals are not planned or shopped for because he doesn't think about them till the children are hungry. And he's a man who prides himself on the interest he takes in his children.

Greatnan, you summed it up as long as WOMEN have babies, but that's the point, women may physically give birth and, hopefully, feed the baby in the early months, but as my MiL used to say ; 'It takes two to make a bargain' and a child has two parents. It is because we have a culture that sees babies and young children as being almost entirely a female responsibility that women are so disadvantaged in the work place.

Until it is mandatory that men take as much child responsibility leave as women the situation cannot begin to change.

Lets face it both the childless and employers are as dependent as parents on the next generation of children to provide them with future customers to keep them working, fund their pensions and provide all the people that will keep society running as we get old and no longer work, not just medical staff and carers but all those from farmers to retail staff to transport manufacturers and energy providers who provide the world we live in.

I suppose that as long as women have babies, and want to spend some time at home with them, they will continue to be at a disadvantage. Firms could certainly do more to recognise that employees have responsibilities outside their work but it can be very difficult for a small company, with three or four employees, to find cover for maternity leave. Some work is so specialised that it is not possible to simply bring in an agency temp.
I think women often underestimate their own skills and apply for jobs that they know are well within their competence. I took the opposite view and always applied for those which seemed out of my reach - and I often got them.
I am playing devil's advocate and trying to look at the problems of working women from all points of view.

Eloethan - agreement from me with all your points above. Greatnan, like you I've mixed feelings about positive discrimination. Maybe I was influenced by comments I overheard from the two male colleagues who were interviewed, but didn't get the team manager post that I did in that round of interviews. One of them was nodding his agreement to the other, who complained loudly, that you needed to be a breast feeding mother (me) or a lesbian (the director) to get promoted these days. That was 1986 - the derogatory comments about women don't change much do they, not does the sense of entitlement to management posts amongst some men.

There are always going to be men who look down on women. They don't need an excuse to be insulting and abusive - just look at the awful way Mary Beard, et al, have been treated just because they are women who have a high public profile and who have either put forward their opinions or demonstrated their expertise. This is the sort of treatment meted out without there being quotas.

Of course, the best person should be chosen for a job, but are we saying that the best person is, three out of four times, a man?

Research has shown that women tend to under estimate their abilities, whereas men tend to over estimate them. Perhaps a little less machismo and a little more humility would prevent the sort of mess ups that we see time after time in business and finance.

I agree that not everybody - male or female - wants to be a "high flyer". Success shouldn't just be measured in terms of power and salary. However, women represent around half of the population and I find it difficult to believe that they are not represented at higher levels in the workforce simply because the vast majority have no desire to be.

I am ambivalent about positive discrimination of any kind. On the one hand, I would love to see more women, people from ethnic minorities, disabled, etc. being given appropriate roles, but on the other hand I know that when I was given a top job in an educational service there was muttering from all the disappointed male candidates that I had only got the job because I was a woman/young/blonde/had a degree. I just worked very hard to prove that I had been a good choice.

The composition of the judiciary remains very largely white, male, public-school/Oxbridge educated, and we can tell from some of the ludicrous comments they have made about rape victims that they are totally out of touch with reality. Things will improve slowly, as more women and ethnic minority lawyers are working their way up through the system.

I am inclined to agree with Sunseeker, in that it shouldn't matter whether a person is male, female, white, black or gay the job should go to the individual with the best abilities in the particular field of expertise they are applying for.

However, like many on GN as far as politics, medicine, journalism, law and some of the higher echelons of business are concerned it is depressing to see a disproportionate number of privately educated individuals taking these top posts. In particular, with high court judges, who on occasions reach such bizarre rulings it makes me question their relevance.

On a slightly different note, an area I would like to see MORE men would be teaching. Having only sons I feel boys, particularly those who have no male role models in their lives, suffer from a lack of male teachers, I know my boys did. That's not to say they didn't have some good female teachers but particularly when adolescence kicks in, some boys, not all, respond better to a male mentor.

Can't believe anyone would describe Jacqui Smith as capable, I think she is remembered as making a total hash of running her department but like many others across all our major parties she did excel in the devious and dishonest departments!

The monitoring/quota arguments are still needed aren't they, despite many positive changes. I also heard the radio 4 programme Aka mentioned and felt I'd been transported back in time when I heard employers say the simply didn't interview women of child bearing age. My children are now in their late twenties. One week, I took 3 days off when one of the toddler's was very poorly. I then a meeting I couldn't miss, so my husband booked a day's leave (his own diary allowed this easily). My husband's manager phoned home to ask "where is your wife".......

Exactly Jess how can we know the best person is being employed? Only if there's monitoring in place are the trends obvious. Firms which only or mainly employ white males for example can then be asked to explain.

Phoenix how can you know you have got the best person for job when you don't do an advert or employ an agency even, just a recommendation by current directors and cronies. this is what happens with directorships which is what Mr Fuddyduddy was spouting about. More junior, normal roles do to a reasonable extent get appointed on merit. But there is still a "does their face fit" factor (unless they have a very good selection procedure - interviews on their own are rubbish). I know one senior management team that (apart from 2 people they inherited) are, like the boss, all white, male, over 6ft 2 and extremely skinny.

No wonder women are elbowed out of top jobs.

FlicketyB, I agree.

This is an interesting video:
Unpaid 'work' usually undertaken by women isn't recognised in GDP.

www.nfb.ca/film/whos_counting/

And how about male quotas for Bums n Tums exercise classes??

The whole "quota" thing is a minefield. Just get the best person for the job.

If the quota issue went to an (admittedly illogical, but I do like the odd flight into la la land!) ultimate conclusion, then we might even being looking at a "quota" of black disabled lesbians, paraplegics with allergies, people born in Cornwall with someone called Denzil as a relative not less than 3 generations removed, anyone who has never been polled in the street by someone carrying out a survey on behalf of UGov, .................

Very true Deedaa

The definition of 'success' is still denominated in male terms. To be successful generally requires working long hours and putting family second. That is why so many 'successful' business men are divorced and 'successful' business women are childless.

What we need to do is challenge how success is reached and measured. Women may be less 'successful' in business but a large number of successful special interest groups that work for changes in social legislation are led by women

I read an article by Karren Brady saying that the thing she really needs is a wife. However successful she has been in her professional life she still finds that children's shoes, school lunches, doctors' appointments etc. don't happen unless she organises them. I suspect this will strike a chord with many people!

My daughter has been very successful in her career, but now she is due to go back to work after her latest maternity leave and she really doesn't want to. She likes her work, she gets on well with her colleagues, but if she could afford it she would just like to stay at home and mess around with the children. I'm not sure there are that many men who would feel the same.

I guess it has long been the case that men get a bit of a leg up in their careers from other men... Most Uk directorships in the private sector are not advertised, they are by recommendation "I know a good chap..."
It would be a huge step forward if they were all advertised openly. Until this happens I don't think it behoves UKIP officials or any other silly old chaps to pontificate on the subject.