Made in China

tiggypiro, the industrial revolution exhibition had me reflecting on the lives my ancestors lives (again). My paternal gran and her sister walked from Coventry to the north west, to work in the cotton mills. Gran was put into service at 11 and hated it, so the 2 sisters ran away. They had an uncle in the north west, who put them up until they got on their feet. They worked 12 hour shifts 5 days a week, and half days on Saturday. I respect their work ethic, and general honestly in life. I feel my generation in our family learned so much from them about the important things in life. One of the mantra's of that generation, who'd worked in the mills and the pits, was that we grandchildren would never 'get your hands dirty' at work. They stressed the value of education as a means of escape from drudgery. They were real hard workers but then, like the Chinese today, I suspect they had to be, or starve.
I agree with you about there being much to admire/dislike about China. I love England/Britain, but we are not in a great place socially or politically i fear.

Going back to the China thread ............ My daughter lives in Beijing and every time she comes she takes back with her many goods which have been made in China and shipped here but which are cheaper to buy here than in China. Absolutely crackers.
One reason China is surging ahead is the work ethic. They all work so darned hard and I shudder to think how many hours a week my SiL works.
I am not trying to vindicate China as there is a great deal I dislike about it but they see an opportunity and grab it whereas we prevaricate until someone else does it - aided by politicians who are only looking to the next election results

How long is the exhibition on for? It sounds brilliant. There was a Grayson Perry pot at our local cinema a while back and it was beautiful [couldn't believe they'd been allowed to show it there].

It's great anno - I wasn't a huge Grayson Perry fan until seeing this exhibition. The dvd playing in a side room is worth a watch as it shows Grayson meeting with women from middle and working class communities. He is such a warm, empathic character. The exhibition also sits along side Hogarth cartoons, and Perry's work mirrors one of Hogarth's tales of wealth and the loss of wealth. If you go, I'm sure you'll enjoy it

Thanks for that tip, iam64. My sister and her husband are coming today and that's something they would be interested in.

We went to Manchester City Art Gallery yesterday, to see the exhibition on the Industrial Revolution. For me, the whole thing was enhanced by the folk songs playing in the background, which I remember singing with my gran, and later at folk clubs. There are some excellent photographs, which illustrate some of the points here, about the poverty reflected in the clothes people wore, and lists of rules for mill workers. I do remember my grandparents working 6 am - 6pm, but earlier in the century, folk worked from 6am - 7.30pm. I was taken to the mill by my gran in the early 1960's, and met her work pals, and heard the noise in the weaving shed, no wonder they all learned to 'me maw' so well. We wouldn't want to have people working in similar conditions now, despite the sense of comradeship and community there definitely was in mining/mill/factory work communities.
I live in what was a cotton town, and have worked across the north west, so have first hand experience of what has happened in areas that were once proud, working class. The level of drug and alcohol abuse is one of the downsides of the end of traditional industry and mining.

The other thing about the Industrial Revolution exhibition, is it sits alongside Jayson Perry's exhibition looking at class. Fabulous, would recommend it to anyone

It's not just that labour costs are kept low in China that give it a highly competitive edge, the currency is massively undervalued.

Penstemmon no offence meant - I was not implying that you were personally responsible for anything - just trying to add a bit of background to how we got where we are today . And yes I too supported the miners etc However the 'uncompetitive' point still remains and, looking back, there were a lot of attempts by Uk governments to keep uncompetitive and badly run manufacturing organisations (and pits) afloat as well as times that the plug was pulled. (all those rescue deals in the car industry for instance - and was there ever a less deserving case than that badly-managed union-bullied shower).
What I was questioning was the use of the concept of planning. Governments have some choices I suppose, but isn't a planned economy something that you only get when government owns all the "means of production"? And controls a lot of other things too.

Except he promised that it would be!

Sounds like good news.....as Gordon Brown once put it, will it be British jobs for British workers?

Worked OK for me.

Thanks second link works

Jingl I don't know if it's just me but there seems to be a paywall on that link and when you close it down it just takes you to the FT homepage

FT article

I heard, during the night on the World Service, that some firms are now going in for "re-shoring". says about it here. But another expert said it will never work now. But I can't remember the reasons he gave. I think I went to sleep.

Another pearl of wisdom lost in the nighttime ether.

Soutra see my Buy British Buy Local thread!

I accept that 21Century is a different place but I do think that successive GB governments, in response to the electorate/society, could have made different choices and that we (society) need to face up to our consumerism, of which I am as guilty as the next, and the sustainability of it all.

I do think that decisions to close major job providers ( ship yards/mines etc) needed to be better planned for to substitute alternative opportunities. I believe it could have been done if there had been a political will to do so.

I have no background in Economics but wonder whether we are ignoring the fact that 1) goods were made more cheaply in Britain when workers were paid subsistence wages, sweatshops proliferated and working conditions were often very poor 2) "bosses" made satisfying profits and demand for goods tended to be from the middle to higher earners (what I mean is that up to World War II poorer people had far fewer possessions/clothes/indeed expectations than the so-called "working class" today.) So this worked after its own fashion right up to the mid 20th century.
In order for the owners to maintain profits, if they could cut costs e.g. by cheap imports from parts of the world where local subsistence wages were even lower, they did so, thus putting indigenous workers out of a job. Fast forward to today - lots of demands for all sorts of products at all levels of society, lots of scope for high profits as long as production costs are kept low and you get a situation like Dhaka in Bangladesh. The demand for cheap products is only partly to blame however - granted if you can buy a T shirt in Primark for a couple of quid, someone, somewhere is being paid a couple of pence, but these Asian/far Eastern factories are also supplying high end retailers - so someone somewhere is making a heck of a profit. The world has changed, communications and transport have changed out of all recognition, mass production is staggering but you cannot put the clock back and however much we mourn the passing of the local factory and its "seconds" shop, if we are not prepared to pay for craftsmen/women to produce quality goods in small amounts we will have to accept "Made in China/Rumania/Sri Lanka labels on our garments. Alternatively you can boycott these and seek out UK companies - give it a try.

We had to take to the streets a couple of years ago to stop the closure of the one remaining engine works in this country [which was in danger of disappearing with no one noticing or caring]. If we hadn't've made such a fuss it would have gone under and all of our engines and rolling stock would have been made abroad.

Jess I am fully conversant with Britain's imperialist past and do not wish to defend it in any way.

However the fact remains that we the electorate of GB /society did not shout sufficiently loud enough as a whole ..I marched as I suspect you did too.. against closures of mines and factories because I knew it would devastate communities and undermine that society. I refer to 'we' as being British society and governments.

Nobody "shut down" British industries Penstemmon - they failed to remain competitive in the world once we stopped shafting the empire. Cotton industry only ever grew to the size it did because the UK government would not let the Indians compete (remember Ghandi?)
Or because management failed to modernise.
Who is this we that have failed to plan replacement jobs Penstemmon?

We have no industry left in this country that is very valuable in terms of the economy. Only banking and that is a bit precarious at the moment.

By shutting down our British industries(ship building, steel, cotton , mines,cars, engineering etc) without planning alternative work whole communities & the country have suffered. London has become over important as this is where money is made and this puts the whole country out of balance.

Most purchases of high end properties in London are by foreign investors: Russian/Chinese etc. They still want a piece of UK!

Granjura is correct that many of the unskilled jobs ( i.e good academic levels not required) sustained communities and that many of the workers were women.

What we have failed to do is to find job opportunities to replace those the factories provided.

We have raised educational expectations which is good and right but have not then provided sufficient work to match qualifications for this new group of better educated people or for the 10%-20% or so of society who may not have the potential to attain high academic standards. We still need people who are able and prepared to do some essential but mundane and uncomfortable jobs..refuse collection, sewer work etc etc.

As China and its people move 'West' they will want better conditions, access to 'luxuries' etc. and will struggle to be as competitive..and it will all move elsewhere!

I wasn't allowed not to value my education as Grandparents and Parents explained to me the importance of a good education. I was encouraged to take advantage of my education as, depending on my qualifications, this is what would shape my future.

I know what Granjura is talking about as, during my working life, we were a mixed bunch, working as a team. I was aware there were very different outlooks amongst us. I was hungry for knowledge others further down the scale were content with their lot and couldn't understand why I would willingly want to study and sit more exams. I was told, jokingly, I was off my head.

Granjura You are right that people's own perceptions of their situation in life are often very different from how others perceive them.
My DD did supply teaching for a time in a secondary school in a deprived area of Northumberland.
One day she was talking to one of the boys ( I suppose the correct term these days is 'student') and he was genuinely very surprised to learn that the area in which he had lived all his life was considered in those terms.

I wonder what it is that makes some people see beyond their limited horizons and take advantage of educational and other opportunities that are afforded them, whilst others don't. Is it parental influence, a charismatic teacher, or something in their own personality?

Soutra and Jane, I absolutely and totally agree with you. I hesitate to reply, as I am not sure I'll find the words, and that they won't be mis-interpreted.

These women taught me a lot- they taught me that what would have had me climbing up the walls, and very disatisfied with my life- the injustice and unfairness of it all- the limitations- in particular with regard to education, etc- did not seem to be such an issue for them. They looked back on their working and social lives with humour and even a touch of nostalgy. It surprised me, and at first really saddened me. But I had to take a huge step back and tell myself- NOT to be 'patronising' as Soutra says- and that it is not up to me to decide if their working and family lives had been worthwhile and rich, as they saw it- and they believed I was a 'bit silly' to go back to Uni after my children went to school- and worked so hard at being a teacher- which they would have hated with a vengeance (they said).

We often put value judgements about other people because of our own background and circumstances- and they taught me that at times it is misguided. They impressed me a lot, with their keen and intelligent interest in all around them- and I am thankful.

I don't think our generation valued our education at the time, did they? Took it for granted is more like it.
The reality is that in today's global more or less free market manufacturing garments will inevitably go to the country that pays the lowest wages.
I don't think there ever was a golden age of British manufacturing. Wages were very low, working conditions usage, employment protection law non existent.
Women were not allowed to apply for mens jobs (look at photos of factory staff - often there will be a lot of female shop floor workers (cheaper labour than men) and the office and management staff will all be male.
Workers from the shop floor, however bright, were not allowed to even apply for office jobs.
Even going back 25 years when I joined a newly-privatised utility company, I was surprised to learn that there were still three grades of staff: manual, craft, professional and that if you were employed as a manual or craft person you were not allowed to apply for any office or management roles!