Alien-Nation

Elegran

Yes, there were a few comments about London but it was more these comments (and some like them) that I found particularly saddened by:

This article can be ignored as UK Gov propaganda. You cannot extrapolate with any accuracy, the feelings of 63+ million people with a poll taking 5000 results. I would be asking WHY did this poll take place and WHO carried it out for WHAT reason! As the UK Gov has been dividing and conquering it's own citizens for centuries; they probably do not want the UK public to get together and force the Gov OUT!

It's normal we have no friends. We live in a very competitive capitalist society, where we are taught to study, earn money and succed since we are little children. T his is a dog eats dog society, and everybody knows, you can't have friends in an environment like this. We have mates, pals, buddies... but not friends.

Same in Canada. This is partly due to thought poisoning: "Teaching people to reason the wrong way. What's good for you is actually bad." Without thought poisoning how would you be able to convince the world that only one country had the right to defend itself ? And that country, it's not yours.

Granted the last one is a Canadian person but it highlights how some people feel disaffected so much - to the point of suspecting governments of thought interference and, who knows, they might be right!

Thanks for the link to that article ffinochio. I like Tim Lott. I particularly enjoyed reading his autobiography "The Scent of Dried Roses".

www.amazon.co.uk/The-Scent-Dried-Roses-Suburbia/dp/0141191481

janerowena those are the friends I would like - the ones who would have me round for tea with 10 minutes notice.

I don't have any good friends who live close by. Excepting for husband of course.

That is such a lovely thing to do. It's very wise advice as well. My father, a widower, died at 87 two months after the death of two of his close friends and two months before the death of the third. He was fortunate in having as an immediate neighbour a lovely young woman who regarded him as a second father, but I remember his immense sadness when George died saying that he wouldn't be long following as his generation were slipping away.

Elegran A sample of 5,000 can be representative of a population as a whole. The YouGov tota panel will be representative of the population as a whole, even though all those chosen are volunteers. Do you remember the days when market researchers came door to door or stopped you when shopping? They would start with a few socio- demographic questions and if you were the wrong age group/social group or otherwise they would thank you for stopping and move on to someone else, well the YouGov volunteers will have gone through a similar process.

It is possible to calculate statistically the probability that a given sample will be representative of the population as a whole. When I was a Market Research manager, and before computers I had a couple of little cardboard wheels on my desk that if twisted showed me for a given population size the probability of different sample sizes representing the population as a whole. It was quite surprising how statistically reliable a quite small sample size can be.

I used to know all the maths that supported these calculations but have forgotten them but I still have the sample wheel somewhere in my desk.

ffinnochio I think the article is right, in the main. I have always thought that true friends are people who don't care what state their own or your house are in, they can just turn up, and so can you. I have moved around a lot and thought I had made some very good friends, but when I made a surprise visit to Lincolnshire once and tried to visit two friends on the spur of the moment, one was very uncomfortable and one wouldn't let me in the house 'because it was a tip'. I was astonished, because if either of them had turned up on my doorstep I would have been very happy to see them, no matter the state of my own house.

Fortunately I do have quite a few friends who are not like that. We were in Kent last week and it was hard to make any definite plans due to having to sort out my mother and stepfather, but I was able four times to pick up the phone and say 'I am ten minutes away, can we pop in for a coffee?'

Maybe Kentish friends are not so houseproud?

I think I have ten good friends. Does that mean I have someone else's? Not long ago I read that most people have around five good friends, of the sort that they could phone up at any time of night if there was a big problem.
My advice to anyone would be, do make younger friends as well as older ones. I have seen elderly friends sob because all of their oldest friends have died, I have 'adopted' a much older lady and see her almost every week because of that.

Agree about London, MiceElf. I've found it to be a vibrant and engaging city.

An interesting and gentle view on friendships

MiceElf, you're right about people in London, in my experience. We've always found that when we're visiting, if we ask for directions or speak to anyone in the street in passing, we are treated in a friendly fashion in most cases. Even on the Tube, a casual remark can sometimes get a friendly answer! I've always assumed that because there are just so many people around it is impossible to keep making eye contact with everybody, and that can come over as being unfriendly.

Yes i agree pens. We are lucky not to be lonely and I appreciate that there are folks whoi are.

katy sounds like you are both happy with the family and friends you have and are not lonely..perfect! I think the issue is feeling lonely and not content.

I am not really a friends person. I've never really understood the need for them. I have sisters who I am very close to so that may be the reason. I have one or two ex-colleagues who I meet up with occasionally for lunch and a very old friend who now lives in a different part of the country. I am always hearing couples say 'we're going out with friends' - I don't get it really.. My DH has no friends and all but is very close to his brother-in-laws (brothers-in-law?). We have one or two mutual acquaintances. He is a lovely, friendly, outgoing man but has never done the whole 'friends' thing. He only has time for his family. He always says he can't imagine anything worse than 'going out with friends'. He meets up with male family members every now and then to watch football etc and he says that's all he wants. On the odd occasion when we do meet up with our friends he is pleasant and friendly but I think inwardly he would rather be somewhere else.

I read the article in the paper. I think that there are a lot of people who imagine everyone else is having an amazing time and maybe that makes you feel lonely!
I guess some people seek out friendship and invest in it, others are not bothered and maybe family is enough. I think there are lonely people who would like to make close friends but I think commuting/ busy lives/cost of socialising etc etc can mitigate against friendship.

DH & I are lucky to have a close group of friends known since the 70's when we were neighbours with one couple and got to know them well. They moved and made some new friends and we got to know them too. There are a core of a dozen of us now but have got to know others who are friends of friends!
Another group of friends (scattered across England) we see 2-3 times a year are linked to DH schooldays and include the couple who were our best man/bridesmaid. We don't see each other often but when we do we pick up easily!
DH & I both meet up (separately) for lunch/days out with friends who were former colleagues/ school friends too on fairly frequent occasions.

We have now moved out of London (40 mins drive) but we still see our friends regularly. I have made new (female) friends locally but DH has not made new friends..though he chats a lot to the local newsagent!

Having said all that I do not have one particular female 'girlfriend' that I would confide in.

Apocryphal story about a house for sale. A couple came to view, and took a walk around the neighbourhood. They found someone in his front garden, and asked him what the people around there were like - were they friendly?

"Ah!" said he, "How do you find them where you live now?"

"Dreadful", was the answer, "No-one speaks if you pass them in the street, the youngsters are all hooligans. We ignore them and go our own way"

"I'd say you'd find them just the same here" he replied. So the couple wenrt home and did not buy.

Next day another couple (from the same town, oddly enough) came to view the house. They too got chatting and asked the same question. They got the same question back, "How do you find them where you are now?"

They answered "Oh everyone is so neighbourly, sometimes the children are noisy, but we always stop and chat when we meet people, and they help us if we have any problems, as we help them"

"I'd say you'd find them much the same here" he replied. So the second couple bought the house and lived there very happily.

I live in a friendly place. People talk to you in the shops, coffee bars and pubs but that's not having friends. I have people I play golf with but that's not having friends. I have people I used to work with- one is a real friend but she doesn't live near by and has huge commitments so I cant see her more than a couple of times a year. I don't have anyone who just rings up to see how I am or if I would like to go for a coffee or indeed anyone who just pops in. DH is my friend and I'm his- God knows what happens when one of us goes. Perhaps I'm not the type that attracts friends - I don't know I've spent my life hoping for a best friend to come along just hasn't happened.

And an addendum to that for these who have read Penelope Lively's lovely book, she describes London as reminding her of Cairo where she was born and lived as a girl. The most cosmopolitan city in the world.

Some may find that frightening, but that's their loss.

I'm wondering why there is an unthinking assumption, based on supposition and surmise, that London and Londoners are unfriendly. Although not a native Londoner I've lived here for most of my life and I find Londoners perfectly friendly. In my own street we have a thriving community association which runs quiz nights, parties, a bridge club, a reading group and so on. We all look out for each other.

London is made up of scores of villages which have simply joined up. And those villages are just as friendly as anywhere else in Britain.

In my view, friendliness is a perception which reflects the experience of the person making it. If someone is stand offish and doesn't make the effort to get to know the neighbours, they tend to blame it on the locality, rather than look to their own behaviour as the cause.

Of course travelling on the tube in rush hour or pushing through the crowds at a big tourist attraction can be a little overwhelming for someone from the provinces, but if you give it a try you will find Londoners (and the glory of London is that you are a Londoner if you choose to live here, no matter where you were born) are the friendliest and most welcoming people you could meet.

hollydaze It seems to be London mainly that is very bad for friendliness. You can't judge a whole country by its largest city.

But I am not sure how effectively they extrapolated from 5,000 people total in the survey to say that 4.7 million have no real friends. You can lose a lot in transferring data from the particular to the general.

From "methodology" on the linked page -
"It was conducted using an online survey administered by members of the YouGov UK panel of 442,100 individuals who have agreed to take part in surveys. An email was sent to panellists selected at random from the base sample, according to the sample definition, providing a link to the online survey and inviting them to take part."

So it was a survey of about 5000 members from a YouGov panel who a) were online, b) had volunteered to do surveys,c) had the time in their not-very-busy social lives to take part.

And also
"The results of this survey do come with some caveats around representativeness. The results were weighted to make the data more representative of the population (of UK adults aged 16+) in terms of age, gender, region and country, and an indicator of social class (based on census information). However, our sample may still differ from the population at large according to other unobserved factors, including those that are the subject of our survey, such as relationships and sexual behaviour."

Iit is admitted that there could be questions about representativeness. Results were weighted artificially to try to make it more representative, and important factors like relationships (which are relevant to loneliness) were unobserved.

Some very damning comments on that link - Britain seems to be not well thought of at all.

I live in London and my problem is that I am the only person who has not moved since retirement. Unfortunately my friends are scattered all over the country and there is nobody now who I could go out with for a cup of coffee. We communicate via email and phone but it is not the same.

I think a lot depends on where you move to. We have moved around a lot but this latest move has been the best. It would be difficult not to make friends where we are! London is another matter as no one speaks to you as you walk along the roads or parks, here everyone speaks to us.

I suspect you worked at it quite hard.