to all GN's living in France 4 year old boy missing

penguin - that assumes that he was going to die. We do not know that.

A little friend f ours has just made the most remarkable recovery when it was thought that hope was gone.

I do have huge sympathy with any parent who desires to see their child out of a clinical setting and into the family environment - and I have never met a medic yet who did not agree that home is best.

I think it is a reasonable assumption that any discussions that might have taken place with the medics (which are of course confidential) would have suggested that the child needs to stay in hospital or the search would not have been triggered in the first place. If the medics were happy about it we would not be discussing it now. I respect those concerns whilst also feeling for the parents in their dilemma. No assumptions are being made about them being bad parents. They are likely to be in a emotional state with such a sick child.

It is hard to imagine the pain they must be suffering, and one can only assume that they were not aware that his feeding device would give up the ghost during the long trek to Spain - or wherever. This is what makes me think that the medics had no idea they were planning to take the child, or they would have made that problem clear.

We cannot indeed know all the details - and it is not right that we should - but can make intelligent assumptions; and we can understand the parents' dilemma and feel for them.

Perhaps the parents have lost faith the doctors will do their best for this child? I wondered, as already mentioned, if they just did not want him to die in a hospital bed but felt they might not be listened to if they tried to broach this? Perhaps they had tried to discuss issues before this. Whatever the background they must have felt the only way they could go forward as a family was by running away from both hospital and doctors. Sad all this media circus will no doubt make life for them when they are inevitably found even more difficult and God knows they must feel desperate.

Sorry Mishap, but until we hear as I am sure we will, the parents side of the story then everything else is heresay.
Neither you nor i know what discussions went on with the doctors, those I hope are confidential, we only have one side of the story, well two actually, the press side too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DD just came down for my shopping list, it had just been on the news here, SIL said, 'if I see the car outside I will offer them lunch a coffee and any Help I can'.

No they have not kidnapped him - all that stuff is just media hype. But they have taken a very sick child who is dependent on machinery for his continued existence out of hospital without discussing it with the experts. That has to be a cause for concern.

I am not worried about the fact that he is being sought, but am unhappy about the media nonsense.

The fact that the hospital staff would probably have advised against discharge is no reason to take the child without talking to them. There is usually listening on both sides, and a suitable compromise achieved. Doctors are not jailers - they truly want to do what is best for everyone.

They probably have Absent, well said by the way.

They probably have.

For heaven's sake.... these parents aren't Bonnie and Clyde. The original posting was bad enough....' a grey Hyundi' complete with reg. no. .....Block Caps .... INFORM AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE..... even down to the 112 international emergency number by way of re-inforcement. I repeat, you cannot kidnap your own children unless a court has decided you are unfit to look after them, and this family have taken responsibilty for their own child, along with his brothers and sisters. So why should anyone report having seen the car?? I certainly wouldn't ... it's no business of mine. Let these poor parents work it through themselves.

Yet another example of media hysteria. I'm amazed the 'red-tops' haven't got reporters scouring France and Spain (expenses paid, of course)

It appears from the latest statements that there have been sightings of the car and the family are now believed to be travelling in Spain.

It was the same here, but there are some strange people out there, and in some reports it looks as though Interpol are investigating a kidnapping, that was from a French news site this morning. Also we only have the doctors side of things don't we, everything else is conjecture.

I thought the reason for the urgency was because the battery on the boy's feeding tube will have run out by now. It surely isn't in his best interests for that to happen when he is not in hospital. I don't think it was the police or the hospital who released the information about the family being JWs. It seemed to come from the press, initially.
Felice the car number will have been given so that people can report seeing it. I don't know what, if anything, was on Belgian TV, but here in France it was clear that people were being asked to ring the hotline number.

Medics don't act in the best interests of a child but in what they perceive to be the best interests. This is a crucial distinction - it doesn't imply bad faith on the medics part but surely there are situations in which the parents will disagree with the medics - it cuts both ways, sometimes parents want to continue treatment and the medics say no. I am appalled at the breach of confidentiality - it's normal surely to say the child is very ill, or his treatment is jeopardised without such detail . The JW angle as many of you have said is surely a red herring . I wonder if they took him simply because they wanted to stop any more aggressive treatment and they believed, rightly or wrongly, that the medics would seek a court order? Either way it's very sad

Not odd if they thought the hospital staff would try to prevent it.

I have never known a situation where doctors were unwilling to discuss with a child's parents the prognosis, the effects of treatment, whether treating is in his best interests etc. And I think that they do listen to the parents' views and wishes.

Clearly these parents are not averse to medical treatment as the boy has already had surgery; so it is all a little puzzling.

We can all understand why they might wish him out of a hospital setting; but just taking him out without discussing it with the staff is very odd.

I share felice's concerns about the media scrum; but presumably the medics and police were so concerned about the boy that they took the decision that involving the media was the way to go and the most likely way of securing his well-being.

Wellsaid, felice. If the child is dying anyway, the parents will just want to make his last few days/weeks as comfortable as possible which, for a young child, presumably means with his family and not in a hospital without them. So long as the parents are able to reduce or control the child's suffering, they are doing nothing wrong. Aggressive medical treatment is not always in a patient's best interest.

I realise that with this particular case what I'm saying is speculative as I do not know the details. The theory, however, remains true.

Still not too happy with the whole situation as portrayed by the British press, surely patient confidentiality has to come in somewhere, and in regard to a minor, then it is the parents who will need to give permission for the childs details to be disclosed by a current doctor.
It doesn't take much to know what will happen as soon as the British medical professionals find out where he is, does it.
A media scrum, parents possibly arrested, siblings taken into care, and a possibly terminally ill child handed over to strangers perhaps at the end of his life.
I think it is gross negligence to disclose the car registration number, what happens if some gungho Police or members of the public decide to start chasing the car, even ramming it to try and stop it.Hopefully the family would stop but, who knows.
Would the Doctors have allowed him to die quietly at home, I know of one elderly man who begged to be allowed to go home, with the support of his family, but the doctors kept insisting they could give him a 'little' longer, he died in pain in hospital.

Felice There were reports that suggested that the child was taken from hospital without "medical consent".

That is quite misleading and under normal circumstances medics do not have any power to prevent this.

However they also have a strong legal duty to act in the best interests of a child if they feel that parents are putting the child at serious risk.

The medics would have to obtain an emergency order to stop the child being removed and could enlist immediate police help in this if it was urgent, but such action is a last resort.

I also agree this child is so sick taking him out is not in his best interests.

Perhaps they recognise that the little lad is coming to the end of his life, and don't wish him to die in a sterile hospital ward. If that is so, then the medics would do all they could to help them to have him at home with plenty of support.

I do hope they have not taken him to some quack who will use questionable methods to try to "cure him" and prolong his time on this earth a little, so as to make money out of the parents distress.

I know that Jehovah's witnesses believe that receiving blood is against scripture (though Orthodox Jews, who obey the same strictures against eating meat which has not been drained of blood, will accept blood transfusions - they recognise that the laws were against eating it) They will accept transfusions of plasma or artificial blood substitutes.

However, JWs are willing to accept other forms of medical treatment. They do NOT believe in faith healing. They don't believe that God will fix everything without humans doing whatever they can.

Exactly POGS - this is the concern. The parents have not acted in a rational way and are likely to be putting this child at risk. But it is possible they are motivated by religious beliefs and are not open to rational discussion about it.

We have to hope that he is found and gets the care he needs.

Goodness

, Surely if you thought you were going to take your son out of hospital at such a young age, after having an operation for a brain tumour, fed through equipment that has a battery life you would discuss it with the doctors, at least mention it.
Would you honestly do that because you have parental control and suffer the consequences to prove a point.

The concern is the care the little lad is getting and that's been the concern all along.

Ashya didn't have tonsilitis or a broken arm where you could help.

The reason that the medics etc are so exercised I think is because of the way that this was done. If the parents had discussed with the doctors their wish to take the child elsewhere, then proper plans could have been made to connect up with another hospital abroad, to make sure he had batteries for his feeding device, to send over the medical history etc.

Instead they just "did a moonight flit" which raises concerns all round.

He is not the property of the doctors, but they do have a duty to make sure he gets proper care and the chance to live (if that is possible).

I can understand that the parents might have feared that he would be made a ward of court if they let the hospital know their plans and wishes, and it does sound as though they have other plans for this lad than medical opportunities to save his life.

It is a dilemma for the medics - their understanding of what is possible is better than the parents; but on the other hand the parents know their child best and may feel differently about treatment. It is always difficult when this happens, as religious beliefs may stand in the way of providing a minor (who cannot express his wishes well) a chance of life.

I wonder what we would be doing if we were in the medics' shoes?

I think if they turned up at any reputable medical facility the staff would persuade them to call Soton General and set everyone's minds at rest. it would not be a routine event for such a very sick child to arrive with a feeding tube etc. Questions would be asked.
There are, unfortunately, a number of unscrupulous (or extremely misguided) private doctors who run clinics that offer "miracle" cures - in other words they exploit the terminally ill. They cannot easily operate in countries like the UK where it is illegal to advertise a cure for cancer.

I find the whole issue quite frightening, does it now mean if you take your child into Hospital they become the 'property' of the doctors? With the legal guardians(parents) having no say in the life of their child.
Surely unless the child has been made a ward of court, which has probably now been done retrospectively the parents are still his legal guardians?
How do we know that he is not already recieving medical treatment on mainland Europe, it is not the third world they have taken him to.
It is being made to look as though he has been kidnapped, what crime have the parents committed???

I'm not going to argue but remember the media outlets have run this story for almost 24 hours non stop and they have played a huge part in trying to fine the little lad by giving out the details of the car registration and numbers to call if seen.