Is wolf-whistling a sex crime?

Groups of men [especially young men] can be very intimidating. For years I was our village litter picker upper [it was one of several jobs that I did!]. Sometimes I'd be walking round the village and I would see one or other of the village lads and would say hello and they would say hello back. However, if those lads happened to be in a group, even though I'd known them since they were at play group I'd feel uncomfortable and cross the road to get away away from them. At the time it puzzled me why I felt that way, but I did [and probably still would now].

It's not for the men to try to work out if a woman would be distressed, it's for them not to do it!

The police decided it wasn't a crime but had words with the men apparently. She is 23 - she feels she is being harassed- of course she wouldn't say anything to the men or look for the manager. Can you imagine what she would almost certainly have had to contend to if she had done so? Oh and apparently the chief protagonist has called her a ' silly little girl' and has been in prison for affray. Nice.

I think the point wondering why she didn't (a) tell the men to stop it as she didn't like it and (b) find out the manager and tell him/her she felt harassed by the whistles is valid. It's possible she felt too harassed to do (a) but she could have done (b) before making a complaint to the police. Couldn't she?

As it stands, I'm not sure a crime was committed. I think an attempt should have been made to make the men stop the whistling and so forth by (a) or (b) and only if that didn't work a formal police complaint made.

However, some people are not very assertive. Complaining to the police was another option.

A touchstone for me is to substitute racist or homophobic behaviour for the sexist e.g. 2 of the workmen, one in a machine, obstructed the passage of the woman who complained; if they had done this to individuals from either of those 2 other groups , in the context of the month long daily, derogatory vocalisations , i have no doubt that the aggressors' behaviour would be attacked- not the behaviour of the recipient. Are women the last frontier for men to bolster their flagging whatever? Or perhaps it's children. BTW several men are posting on MN condemning the behaviour.

vampirequeen This young woman had apparently been harassed constantly when passing the building site and had tried to ignore the whistles until one day one of the group of men stood in front of her and blocked her path. Can you not see that a young woman on her own might feel vulnerable in such a situation?

No-one has suggested that a man can't look at a woman - but there is such a thing as stepping over the line. For instance, a quick, appreciative glance at a person (male or female) from a person that finds them attractive is probably quite a natural response. A persistent stare is something entirely different. It's all about common sense and balance.

As JessM said, the statistics demonstrate that women don't imagine men can cause them harm - the fact is a considerable number of men do cause harm to a considerable number of women. When there is a spate of violent sexual assaults on women or non-domestic murders, other women are urged not to go out on their own, to ensure they get a taxi home, etc., etc., which is not house arrest but is certainly a restriction on their freedom to come and go as they please.

How were the men to know that the woman in question was distressed?

I'm not siding with anyone. I just don't see why she didn't complain for a month although she says she felt harassed or why she's happy to have her photo plastered over the papers. Now people will know what she looks like and if they see her they are bound to point/talk about her. I would find that far more threatening.

If Mrs. P got a wolf whistle whilst we were together I would feel quite proud, then I would say - does he need his eyes testing - then physical assault would occur.
I'm in trouble again

Years ago a wolf whistle was seen as a compliment (in my opinion anyway). I had my fair share of them and always felt pleased if someone whistled at me.

Obviously the world is a different place now.

A guiding principle is, if person 1 is behaving in a certain way towards person 2 and it becomes obvious that person 1 is uncomfortable and stressed by that behaviour, person 1 should desist.

If person 1 persists with the unwelcome behaviour, it is then by definition aggressive and harassing.

There have always been women around who like to side with men against other women

I wonder when a wolf whistle (which never offended me, rather the opposite) became a sexist offence?
Needless to say I haven't had one for years!

I think someone (I know i should read back) said that wolf whistles are more common, I have not heard a wolf whistle for many years (or any sort of whistle for that matter, but that is another thread). We had building work going on at the bottom of our garden for about a year, the site foreman came round one evening to apologise for the bad language on the site and said it would stop. We had not heard any, some pretty bad singing, but no swearing. Maybe living in a village we are insulated from this type of behaviour.
Before you jump on me, I don't doubt this sort of behaviour exists, I have just not witnessed it.

But she wasn't physically assaulted. She was wolf whistled and one man said, "Hello."

If we're going to go into the land of 'what if' then we need to put all men under house arrest in windowless rooms so that they can't even look at a women in case she feels harassed.

Are we really going to paint all men as potential rapists and murderers?

We are not talking about a situation where a man and a woman feel a mutual attraction and are flirting with one another on an equal basis. We are talking about a situation where a young woman on her own is being subjected to the unwanted attentions of a group of men, one of whom then chooses to block her path by standing in front of her. I think if that had happened to me as a young woman, I would have found it humiliating and possibly a bit frightening.

As a matter of common courtesy, I would pass through a door and hold it open for the person behind me to prevent it from swinging back in their face. If I thought that person required more assistance - say they were pushing a buggy - I would hold the door open for them as they passed through it. I would not expect a man to make a point of going in front of me to open the door and let me pass through it before him. I don't think many women would expect or even want that these days.

I think it is reasonable for a relatively able bodied man or woman to give up their seat for an elderly person, someone with mobility problems, a person holding a baby or young child, a pregnant woman or someone who is feeling unwell. It's about having consideration for those people who appear to require a little more assistance, whether they be male or female.

Katek men always in the wrong... can I suggest that you take 5 minutes to look at the statistics about who commits the following types of crimes:
Murders
Rapes
Indecent assaults
etc
In fact, look at the figures for crime in general. Are the gender discrepancies due to poor men being blamed too often?
And is the intimidation felt by women in a range of circumstances possibly anything to do with the fact that men commit the above crimes rather more often than women?
vampirequeen sounds like you only bothered to read the latest of a huge number of posts on everyday sexism.

gilly that was awful behaviour and certainly sexism /harrassment.

I wonder what our responses would be if the girl in the OPs story had been physically sexually molested by a workman from the site?
Would anyone be saying, 'Well why did she not report the whistling and sexual banter?'

Sexism is about imbalance of power. A group of men shouting overtly sexual remarks or whistling at a girl, only men making the rules that impact on women. Women workers systematically teasing the junior male clerk etc. It is not a healthy way for any society to function! We need to start thinking about each other as people not as men/women with sexual 'potential'!

If I was at a party / pub and I met a person that I liked and thought they liked me too and all things were 'equal' I would feel OK if I /they made a move ( arm round the shoulder...not a grope!!) that suggested they were sexually attracted.

Gillybob, your experience is blatant harassment if not worse.

I despair - grown up folk who insist they don't know the difference between a bit of 'harmless' flirting and sexual harassment. gillybob, you can imagine this thread has become polarised but your experience is very similar to many others who have posted here. It's horrible isn't it.

I agree some harassment is intended as such and that has to be dealt with but did the men who whistled realise the woman felt harassed? Did the young man who said, "Hello," intend to harass her or was he trying to strike up a conversation in order to get to know her better?

If we don't don't want someone to say/do things we don't like then we have to tell them. If the young woman had said to any of the men or phoned the company to say that she didn't like it and they'd continued then it would have been harassment but as she didn't give any indication that she was unhappy with the situation why shouldn't they think it she was OK with it?

VQ, you have it in one - subjective - one persons harassment is another's flirting, it's all a matter of personal opinion. The problem comes when "A" thinks he/she is flirting and "B" thinks he/she is being harassed. There are of course incidents where the harassment is in intended as such.

Coming in a bit too late to read the entire thread, I apologise in advance if the thread has moved on but I remember being about 25 and starting work in a new company. I was terrified of one of the owners who used to corner me in the corridor or office and force me to give him a kiss before he would release me. It was horrible. I needed the job desperately and had no choice but to try and stay out of his way. I would hate to think my DD or DGD's would have to suffer anything similar.

But what constitutes sexual harassment? It all seems too subjective.

If a young man is flirting with a young woman and in the process puts his arm around her is that sexual harassment?

If a young woman is flirting with a young man and in the process puts her arm around him is that sexual harassment?

Aren't we just becoming too sensitive? Common sense has to prevail at some point. It's going to a be boring world if we're not allowed to appreciate the attractiveness of someone or never be shown that we're attractive.

I don't want special treatment, but equality isn't too much to ask surely. I hold doors open for the person coming along behind me, it's simple good manners. I give up seats for people who are older, disabled or pregnant.
To be free from sexual harassment in public or private spaces would be a wonder. Sexual harassment is never acceptable as others have said, no matter if it's silly women deliberately humiliating and harassing boys/men. It's simply not acceptable and I don't understand why anyone would minimise, trivialise or otherwise suggest it's only a joke

The drink of other people there, that is.

I have warned my kids about the christmas scene pompa.
Go, but leave before the drink takes over.
about your trousers.