Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

Suit yourself Anya. It's what I believe and if everyone else is allowed their beliefs, I can't see why I'm not allowed the same. I grew up C of E, I remain C of E, that's what I believe.

Because you dont need to say it at all grannypiper?

By seeing you, I might want to say all sorts of things about you, but I wouldnt would I?

That makes things equal doesnt it?

A statement of fact can often be an insult. Dont you agree?

Outrageous

That is outrageously GP and even worse from nina bringing god into it.

I can't believe I have just read this

Granby why is it important i dont upset your DD by saying she is not a real woman, it is not an insult it is a statement of fact and why is your daughters thoughts and feelings more important than mine or anyone elses ? This is where the nub of the problems lies, LGBT ETC feel they are more important than other people,that their wishes must be given priority andthey demand respect but dont give it back. Your daughter is no more important than i am.

Hmmm, well my thoughts are that if they have a womb and can give birth, then they are a woman as God intended. If they can't, then they are a man.

In light of what Anya has written[who I do not know, but has written often on gransnet] and LSP[who may have been on gransnet a long time ofr all I know, but cant say I have noticed much on GN] I will take on board what Anya says.

I personally have no intention of rumaging around on MN for appropriate links or not as the case may be to what LSP writes.

LSP may be right for all I know, or she may be wrong.

Bearing in mind all I could find about non segragated toilets was a Telegraph article from 2014, and what Anya writes, then I think I personally will hold back from taking on board things that LSP says for now.

Girl guides now allow people in based on gender identity, not sex, also transwomen can compete in the Olympics against females based on new rules. The bbc often report crimes by men as crimes by women, Bethany Hills murder was widely reported as a murder committed by a male and female couple, she was murdered by a male and a transwoman.

Google is your friend.

Ankers, I wish that I was making this up, I really do.

gender recognition bill

All the other information is out there, it's not hiding or hard to find, Mumsnet feminist boards are a good place to start with links to , there are threads that contain links to all the stats/studies, crime figures etc, just go look. read the information then make your own mind up

I think that it's our responsibility to educate ourselves so we can make an informed decision.

Right, off to work, catch up later.

Lumpy you show your ignorance of current biological research. when you deny the science that is emerging about the brain. The earth isn't flat and the sun doesn't orbit us.

The whole discussion reminds me of the way gay people were treated in the days when homosexuality was first decriminalised. I'm shocked and saddened by the whole tone.

LSP. I will ask you again. Please provide links[obviously you do not have to].
But personally, I am not going to take much notice of your posts, if it is just words by you, with nothing to back them up.

You may well be write, but look, I can write anything too. I can write
"The brain is not plastic so female brains will change when they are socialised as a female". And "there is such a thing as a sexed brain and there is a huge amount of well researched peer reviews papers on the human brain".
See how easy it is?

Granby, your daughter sounds lovely but she is a not a good basis for changing the law so that any man has access to female spaces, jobs, scholarships etc.

Also, there is no such thing as a sexed brain, brains do not work like that though the idea of a female brain is often trotted out by men.

The brain is plastic so female brains will change while they are socialised as female, it's society that is shaping the brain not a difference they are born with. Just like you can spot a taxi drivers brain!

There is a huge amount of well researched, peer reviewed papers on the human brain if people are interested.

People are tripping over themselves to be cool and inclusive and they are giving away women's rights in the process

I am wondering now if "pc" and "cool" is actually something run largely by men, and that is why this is happening?

What is this feeling of women because I don't have it and I am a woman.

But that doesnt mean everyone else is the same. I think I feel like a woman? Though I am not a girly girl particularly.

This whole area of sex and gender is a minefield. I thought I knew a lot about it as I taught a biology/ psychology course on gender, but I'm not so sure now! Meanwhile, I still support Jenni Murray and her right to say what she said and she shouldn't be sacked as some loud voices in Stonewall and other organisations are calling.

LSP. Can you provide some links please for what you write? Else it just becomes a poster posting if you see what I mean.

We have threads on here about making sure sources are correct, and who writes the sources etc. Are they biased? Is it just someone's opinion on a blog etc.

So, for instance
I am sick of murders, rapes and violent crime being reported as female violence when it is committed by a biological male, this is common, even in this country.
needs a link to crime statistics or something similar.

LumpySpacedPrincess.
I googled about what you said, and found this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/student-life/11235210/Student-life-gendered-toilets-belong-in-the-past.html

It was the only article I could find about it though.

But I have to say, I think it is quite alarming.

Though I think the general public would be up in arms if this happened with public toilets?

Maria Millar is pushing for a gender recognition bill that would make gender, not sex, a protected characteristic. 80% of transwomen have male bodies, they call their male body parts female body parts because they are on their body. People need to catch up if they want to debate this. Male crime is being reported as female crime, that will change when "women" start to commit crimes in larger numbers. Trans is a big umbrella which includes lesbians calling themselves men as they don't fit the narrow stereotype, ditto effeminate gay men who become women, children transed because they prefer toys that society uses to socialise the other sex.

Football has been used in the UK as an example as to why a girl is really a boy, it was also used across the pond to indicate that a boy was really a girl as "soccer" is a girls game in the us.

There are people under the trans umbrella who suffer from body disphoria, which affects the same area of the brain as anorexia.

There are also men who transition late in life who get get a sexual kick from dressing in clothes traditionally reserved for women. Look up autogynephilia or take a wee glance at the some forums or listen to the magnificent Miranda Yardly or Grayson Perry. I have met several transwomen who fall into this category and they do not belong in my changing room.

I don't care what pronouns someone uses or what clothes they wear, I have fought for gay rights all my life.

I am so angry at the way lesbians are now bullied by some transwomen who call them phobic if they don't consider them sexual partners, that's rape culture right there.

I am sick of murders, rapes and violent crime being reported as female violence when it is committed by a biological male, this is common, even in this country.

I am sick of being told that talking about female biology is phobic, I mean come on, when have women ever been able to talk about our biology without being silenced and shamed.

transwomen can have a hard time, they can identify with the role females are given, but that does not make them biological women, why would it.

How can a biological man become a woman? What is this feeling of women because I don't have it and I am a woman.

People are tripping over themselves to be cool and inclusive and they are giving away women's rights in the process. The right to access space without men to get changed, the right to factual crime stats, the right to a compete with other females (we've already lost this one ) the right to choose their own sexual partner, the right to free speech, the right for girls to have their own groups without boys (we've also lost this one .)

The impact on women is huge and is already being felt, please apply some critical thinking, if not for you then for our kids.

Me too Rigby46.

And if a bloke can say he feels like a woman, put a frock on and use women's toilets as an 'entire' male and just because he says so, where will women's and girls safety be?

Did I hear this wrong somewhere?

I agree with everything you've said, Rigby46.

Granby - yes, I've tried very hard to be clear about what my criticisms are. I would hazard a guess that your dgd wouldn't refer to me as a 'cis-woman'. My view is that the TAs are actually making it harder for people like your dgd because they are hijacking and misappropriating the whole terms of the debate.

There is a condition known as Klinefelter in which the person has twoX chromosomes and oneY - I know a man with this syndrome. He does feel like a man I imagine as he lives his life as a man and takes testosterone. This condition was not really diagnosed till he was mid twenties. People with this condition often have a particular body shape and are also prone to certain medical conditions apart from anything related to gender. In most cases they are infertile - in the case of the man I know that he finds to be a great disappointment.
I also know a man who is a cross dresser and goes to parties with like minded people. He is quite open about his love of wearing ladies clothes etc.but as far as I understand he has no wish to change gender. He talks quite openly about all this and can tell a few very funny stories about going to some of these parties. When he is dressed as a man he is a very smart dresser. When he is wearing female clothes he goes by another name and often will announce before the event which name he will be going by so that people are aware. He has no problem at all about any of this.

Sparkly - exactly and that's because the nastiest, most vociferous ones still are blokes

Again, Rigby and myself are talking about Trans Activists not women like your lovely daughter Granby.

I agree with Jenni. I think a woman has to go through girlhood and experience all that being a woman entails.

I know there are angry people who would like to silence people like Jenni and Germaine, who are stating their opinions - or some might say facts.

The more some people in the TG lobby shout and insist, it makes me feel like saying, you are sounding like a bloke not a woman.