Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

Which is my point really. Women come in all shapes and sizes and attitudes.
Jenni is trying to stereotypify a woman. Why?

suzied, but does that matter?
Why do they have to be "typical"?

I don't agree with no platforming people. It is rude to invite people and then effectively disinvite them and universities are places where people should learn to question and debate.
I also don't understand why people can't disagree and debate without insults, abuse and arrogance. So many people seem to need a reason to feel superior to others.
She may be technically correct but I think it is a bit mean. Transgender people may not have had the same disadvantages and patronising attitudes that women have but it is unlikely that they will not have been made to feel like misfits and have had their own discrimination. It doesn't hurt anyone to let them decide what they want to be called.
One day science will find an explanation for the condition and then people may be less judgmental.

I think Jenni said that transgender women try to be stereotypical women and concentrate too much on hair, clothes and makeup , whereas most women actuallly wear jeans most of the time and not stilettos. So if a transgender women wanted to be a typical woman she could just wear jeans like the rest of us. So the lived experience of being female is not the same. Transgender women aren't interested in the monthly pain,and low pay of women but seems to be concentrated on the biggger wardrobe options.

Sacked for rational opinions, my goodness me, who actually wants that? Bullies that's who. People who think that their cause entitles them to make everyone else kow down to their world view.

I worked with old ladies at one time, and one of the volunteer helpers had the transition op. He looked very much the same and the old ladies did not want him in the ladies toilets with them, or trying to provide anything personal based upon the change he had undergone. For over 70 years (in a small town) he had been a man.

They used to tell him to 'come back when youve had a period or a baby' and it caused a lot of concern for them (different generational attitudes) officially staff were told that he had to be treated as a woman post op.

That op was his choice and good for him he made it. However other people didn't like it and I believe had the right to say so. Just as Jenni has the right to query the socialisation of gender and the part it plays.

I have read that a woman is having her eggs frozen so that when she has her op she can then be her own sperm donor. Just because we can do things scientifically, do we have to?

Kindness is a must but that cuts all ways (oh dear no pun intended) so many people have the op and are still conflicted, human lives are fragile and comple it is different in every case, just as opinions are.

I'm not sure what I think or feel about this. Gut instinct agrees with JM and GG and do feel pity for people in this situation. What I do feel passionately about though is teaching young, primary age children about all this stuff. They don't need to know and certainly don't need any kind of programming or influence which I think might happen.

I agree about not needing a definition, ankers, but then such a definition doesn't affect me personally. Would that recognition of transgender people as just as human as anyone else, whatever their gender/sex orientation, were sufficient. I think we'll get there, just as we have, for the most part, "got there" about homosexuality and bisexualityn relationships.

I find it interesting that she doesnt talk about woman to man. I wonder what she says about that? That they are not real men and never will be?

I dont think we do need a definition.

river re your post about the demands for Jenni Murray to be sacked, I also hope the BBC dare not! It would be outrageous, as in any caving in to illiberalism.

ankers, re your point about defining a "proper" woman.... do we need such a definition is what I wonder. Maybe we need "was a male" and "was a woman" words, but I guess that's what many transgender people don't want. They want to be recognised as "proper" whatever they've chosen/feel regardless of biology and actually different physiology. In a hundred years' time maybe we'll have sorted the language out but in the meantime, it's a bit of a fudge. Whatever the case, it's still wrong to want to shut down discussion around the issue.

How do you define "airhead", Ankers?

A transgender woman can be an "airhead", well just as much as some "real" women can be.
So Jenni's point does not really stand up.

Can't see how you can sack someone for sharing an opinion but no I don't agree with her Some transgenders have eaten slept dreamt about women and being a women since day 1 if anything they are more into being a woman than me who loves wearing jeans and would play footie and climb trees ( when younger) but don't have male hormones and wouldn't want them
I don't believe this can ever be a clear cut judgement call What about tom boys or girly men what are they? are they 'real' women or 'real' men
I think it's expressed poorly she is correct that a transgender man biologically can never be a 'real' woman but in feelings, thoughts, expressions they certainly can be

The man that Jenni was angry with is now a female vicar. Jenni was discussing the struggle that women have had to go through to be ordained and the abuse that some female priests have had and are still in some cases going through. The vicar seemed oblivious of this struggle and was seemingly more concerned about what clothes and make up to wear for their first service.
A bit like Caitlyn Jenner saying the most difficult thing about transitioning was deciding what to wear!
Apologies for any pronoun misuse

I think JM's real issue is that she feels she may have "struggled" being a woman in perhaps a man's world, and no transgender man to woman[she doesnt seem to be talking about woman to man] cannot possibly understand hers, and others' struggle?

For what it is worth, why JM should be sacked is beyond me. Unless she is not being tactful. Though there are a whole lot worse things that she could do!

Ithink you can be sympathetic towards transgenders whilst still sharing JM's view Ankers

Good. Then I think the whole subject should be done with a whole lot of tact.

Found this
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/womans-hour-presenter-dame-jenni-murray-in-storm-over-transgender-comment_uk_58bc24cce4b05cf0f4012665

but psychologically feel they aren't in the correct body ( transgender)

Unless we have been there, I dont think someone else is going to know how they feel.
In that case, maybe being female has more to do with something innate rather than merely physical.

There is a difference between those with a biological gender disorder, what used to be called intersex, but now called AIS, where someone is brought up as female, but actually has male chromosomes and those who have no biological disorder but psychologically feel they aren't in the correct body ( transgender) . There are some female athletes who have AIS, and people who have grown up as women, but when they try to have children , or don't have periods find out there is a hormonal / genetic disorder. Jenni was talking about people who have been brought up as male, have no biological disorders but transition to female for psychological reasons.

Ithink you can be sympathetic towards transgenders whilst still sharing JM's view Ankers.

I cant read the full article as it is behind a pay wall. But in the part I can read it says she felt anger towards a man who transistioned.

I don't think there is a decision to be made, this was just JM expressing her opinion. we can agree with her or not and have a right to an opinion. It does seem sometimes that anyone having a view which goes against the current trend is castigated.

She cannot have children of her own because she was told that she did not have enough female hormones. So they adopted.
Is she a woman? Of course she is, as is plain to see by everyone with half an eye.

I think such matters are on a sliding scale and not black and white at all.

I know a woman who can run rings around some men,physically, her husband included.

Personally I feel a bit sorry for such people, and think people should be kind and understanding towards them. And not disrespectful.