Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

Good grief, Thatbags. Bonkers!

Trisher, I don't think anything needs to be said about a 5yo who wants a boys haircut etc. They're simply five years old and at one time would have been called a tomboy. When my son was four or five years old he was convinced he was a duck and spent much time flapping his 'wings' and quacking. We didn't feed him duck food, though, and by the time he was six, he'd grown out of it.

Trisher sounds like my sister, she is now the happily married mum of 3. Thank goodness no one filled her full of hormones!

That should be except not expect it's a bit Wallace and Grommitt- the wrong trousers!

Returned to this after a busy International Women's day and can't believe some of the stuff being posted. There were women killed in both World wars, they weren't on the "Front Line" but that was because they were not permitted to be by men. Does it matter if they were hospital staff, civilians bombed, fireworkers putting out incendiaries, resistance workers or spies? They died. History is of course written by men and many of the stories of the sacrifices and dedication women have shown have been lost in time. I suggest nina does less writing and more reading about women's history.
I still don't know what to do about transgender men but nor do I know what to say about a friend's 5year old GD who has announced she wants to be a boy, insisted on having her hair cut short, refuses to wear anything expect trousers and does look like a boy. All I can say is love him/her whoever she decides to be.

Suzied , you asked a straightforward question IMO you must be amazed at what you unleashed!
Hope you've gone for a lie down.

Great examples thatbags , but should have been preceded by a snorting your tea over your iPad health warning.
If I thought I could even remember "heteronormative " and "problematise" I might try dropping them into the conversation now and again ??

rafichagran totally agree with your post.

Here's another gem from what I suppose is politely callled a gender studies paper:

"Although breast-feeding is assumed to be natural and a biological function, we problematize the practice as both gendered and heteronormative."

I'd love someone to try and convince me both this and the previous paper are not total bollocks <<< deliberately "gendered" word. Both quotes are from the abstracts of supposedly academic papers.

"problematize" !!!
"heteronormative" ???

'Academic' bonkersness:

"Pregnancy has been socially gendered as feminine" from the abstract of a paper.

Is it also a question of nature and nurture?

If nature is our biology which determines our physical make up /organs etc. and is definable by our chromosomes,hormones etc. generally we can define new babies as male or female.

As with all 'syndromes' and various other congenital abnormalities there will be babies born that have chemical imbalances, missing components etc and this may make their sex/gender less clear cut.

Nurture, all our experiences from birth onwards, will impact on our expectations of what constitues womanhood/manhood.

I think of Male <-------------> Female as a kind of continuum and we are all on it in different places. That place will be mostly determined by nature but we can change that place as a result of our nurture.
I consider myself a feminist. I see it as a campaign for full equality, where male/female are not limited /constrained because of their sex. Whilst it might be true that male/female are physically different (nature) this should not limit what people choose to do, how to behave, wear, look like or how people are treated because nurture has conditioned us to think more 'stereotypically'.

If some people feel they are more female/male despite physical attributes suggesting they are male/female and this causes them distress and unhappiness surely we need to be understanding and supportive? What type of man /woman those individuals transition to will depend on their nurture view on what men/women are.

I think it is hard for those of us who are clear about our sex and who are comfortable with who we are to appreciate the complexities faced by people whose bodies do not represent who they feel they really are.

What part do you find extraordinary?

Obsessed, no.

Concerned, yes.

LSP I find you ranting on about feminism a bit disconcerting. You seem very obsessed and that is not healthy. The way you are talking about transgender is extrodinary, You say you stick up for women, well someone like you does not represent me. I will stick up for men, woman and children who need it and who are vunerable. I find you very narrow minded.

A man who doesn't feel masculine isn't a woman, he is man who doesn't feel masculine. Women do not have a hive mind or an innate gender though we may share traits we pick up as we are socialised in a similar way. I am sure my woman feeling is very different from Ankers woman feeling, if I can be completely honest the only women feelings I have are tied to my biology, when my body works as it should and when it doesn't.

All the rest is just stuff I like and don't like, most of the same stuff that my husband likes too.

Blimey, maybe he's a woman!

That's the crux of the issue absent, I am an adult human female and have a personality, not a gender.

I fully support anyone who wants to wear any clothes that they like, I welcome it, I think it would be bloody brilliant if men could be feminine.

nina, when women won the vote about 0.00005% of the population ideantified as feminists, didn't make them wrong though.

Men who commit crimes can say they are women and be put in women only prisons?

Ankers, you posted this earlier I think? The answer is yes, happening already, some have had to be moved back to male prisons. There is case in the US, Fort Worth, Texas, where female prisoners are suing as they are having having to shower with men who are very obviously sexually attracted to them. they are being vilified as transphobic and told they should put up and shut up but that can't be right can it? They are all in prison and the women get a double dose of fear and humiliation and male bodied transwomen get their jollies.

Ian Huntley would now like to be known as Lian and moved to a female facility too, though it was in The Sun so could be a load of hooey.

The rapist Lisa Hauxley will be tried as a woman and housed with women.

At the root of this discussion there is something of an unsolvable problem. What exactly does "feeling like a woman" mean? Clearly, it has to mean different things to different people. Somewhere up the thread a poster stated something along the lines of I am a woman and feel like a woman. No doubt she does, but how much does her feeling like a woman match my feeling like a woman or that of any other woman? There is no way of knowing. My body is that of a woman, I am a mother, my lifestyle is that of a woman and my legal status is that of a woman. I have no desire not to be a woman so my feelings about myself are, per se, those of a woman.

When a biological, chromosomal man says he feels like a woman it is difficult to know what he means. That he does not feel like a man is a recognisable feeling, but can he actually feel like a woman or is it simply that "not a man" pretty much has to to translate into "woman". (I know that some have made asexual choices but I think that is different territory.)

The word gender has been hijacked – it was simply a linguistic concept and had nothing to do with sex. Now it has become a personal identity concept that still has nothing to do with sex. It is as if the sexual nature of human beings is being sidelined while at the same time the sexual identity is being highlighted. Can you have one without the other?

I apologise for sounding confused. It is because I am confused. And before anyone starts accusing me of prejudice or being transphobic, I have been very close to a MTF trans throughout his/her entire procedure.

And only 20% in America. Must have been the pink pussy hats that finished them off. Smiles as waves bye.

Ankers I'm pretty over this debate but the fact that only 7% of Brits consider themselves feminist says a lot. To think we've made it this far only to be sunk by extreme radicals. Such a shame.

absent, so much work that women do is unpaid and undervalued too.

. I am a researcher, and a published book author plus I do another job where I work with women every day.

I cant see how any one of those things, or a combination, automatically makes you right, and others wrong.

nina1959 I love the idea that being a "published book author" bestows some sort of authority. There are quite a few "published book authors" who are members of Gransnet – aren't we blessed?

I am curious about your statement that "men get paid more because they work longer hours". Have you found evidence of this in your research, as this view certainly contradicts government statistics and other reputable sources.

So I think for a lot of women, bravery and motivation got them a lot farther if they were prepared to stand up to any obstacles. A lot of women would have bowed down under pressure

In that case, in what way are men and women equal? Do men have the very same obstacles?

Could you point out which comment exactly you have found offensive particularly nina. Do you think it's women who cause wars, or do you think we are making stuff up?

I would be more than happy to back up anything that I have stated, I think I have but please tell me if I can clarify anything for you.

I haven't made any derogatory remarks about decent men. I guess you've lost the argument, if you're done, Nina1959.

You maybe need 'entitled' and 'snowflake' there, as well, LSP.

I'm sorry girls but you make me feel ashamed to be female with your comments about men. I'm not going to insult my own intelligence by replying further to either of you. I certainly don't need you batting for my corner of women's rights.

I'm done.