Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

Afghanistan women live in Britain. My daughter-in-law is Muslim. She abides by cultural rules of her religion. Is she to subsume her culture to another person's rights?

As for men making medical breakthroughs, whilst I am appreciative of such discoveries, maybe that's because women for centuries weren't allowed to be doctors or many other things in the UK and still aren't in other areas of the world.

I'm not anti-men. I have a loving husband, two wonderful sons and a dear son-in-law as well as two cute grandsons.

I think some of you need to look through a different lens and not one of hysteria. Yes, I realise that there are valid concerns. I support them.
But just all these men who have paved the way for the medical treatments now. And you're telling me you're scared of men in white coats?
It was a man that stopped women dying in childbirth! I'm takling about the Western world. Please don't muddy the debate with Eastern culture.

www.biography.com/people/groups/discovery-medical

I'll to that nina

Rigby present me with a rational argument and I'll listen. But much of what I'm reading is similar to the hysteria generated when homosexuality was decriminalised, unless you're too young to remember that.

Iam you don't just get accepted into Women's Refuges willy-nilly (!) You have to be a victim of domestic violence and the people who run these places are very canny. I wasn't allowed in myself when visiting a friend without the more rigid scrutiny. Anyone who has rolled up at these places will testify to this,

Re public toilets. There's no one normally on duty in places like supermarkets to stop anyone of either sex going in whatever one they chose to at the moment. And those that are 'manned' are by virtue of that much safer.

I'm not saying there isn't a window of opportunity for the determined abuser to slip through. What I am saying is that the majority on transgender people are not sex attackers or abusers of adults or children. If some are thinking this is an opportunity for sexual predators to seek out and find unsuspecting victims, that possibility exists, but then these opportunities exist in any situation already.

I agree about the concern about women's spaces (toilets, changing rooms, refuges etc.)- it would be a huge backward step to lose those. And the idea of rape being logged as having been perpetrated by a woman when the criminal used a penis for the crime is utter lunacy.

I suppose what strikes me most forcefully though is the sheer barminess of it all. I appreciate that some people do feel as if they were born in the wrong body and that must be a sore trial for them; but to believe that this can be made better by just making an announcement that you are now a woman or man flies in the face of logic. If I said black was white, would I have the right to be believed?

I guess I will now just be labelled a dinosaur - hey ho - back to my cave.

The idea of women with a penis being accused of sexual assault, or rape and the crime being listed as rape by a woman is abhorrent to me.

I'm also concerned about the idea of men who identify as women but have male sexual organs being allowed into spaces that women have fought hard and long to have. Women's Refuges would be a prime example. Dos violent or sexual offences are committed by men. Women and children who are placed in the (increasingly) rare resource that is a women's refuge will almost certainly be there because of extreme and prolonged violence from a male partner, possibly accompanied by death threats. Are we really saying its ok for that space to be used by men who identify as women.

I accept that there will be domestic violence within that group of individuals, as there is within lesbian or gay relationships. Maybe the activists could look at creating some safe spaces for their groups, as women's groups have done. I apologise if this view offends people. I worked with women who were subject to death threats and extreme, prolonged violence from male partners. I feel strongly that the hard fought for safe space shouldn't be lost or no longer feel safe for that group of women.

The thing about far extremes is that many laws cover that kind of situation precisely. Most people are not paedophiles but we have laws about it. Most people are not terrorists but we have laws about that. Ditto for gun ownership or money-laundering or human trafficking. Most people are law abiding but laws are needed for the outliers.

Anya - I'm surprised at how incredibly dismissive you are being of those of us who have concerns around trans issues, especially the proposed legislation that self identification is all that it will take for penised men to have a RIGHT to enter what were women only spaces. And the issue about such men being charged with rape as women - don't you think that matters or do you think we are making it up? IMO you are being incredibly naive at best and stupid at worst.

Indeed. I had a male midwife for one of my children's births. The point is, I was asked if I was happy to have him attend me (I was) and I wasn't told that he was actually a woman.

Also, many women have died for lack of female doctors. Culturally, it is unacceptable for some women to be attended by male-bodied medical staff. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-38918509

SueDonim,it's only been recently that woman have performed such tests. The medical and legal profession have always been dominated by men. Both my children were delivered by male doctors.
I have to admit that at the time I was in so much agony that didn't really care if it was a well trained gorilla delivering the births.

I do take your point however but I personally don't want to get caught up in far extremes.

Most of the women here will have been for a smear test at some point, expecting a female nurse to do it. Imagine being told by the six-foot-plus, heavily built, bearded person in front of you, in their deep bass voice, that they are indeed a woman and will conduct your test. Now imagine you have previously been raped, as well.

And no, this isn't a hypothetical scenario. This happened recently to a friend. She in fact refused the test and made an official complaint which was upheld. Under the proposed Bill, she would have no grounds for complaint. I cannot believe women are happy for this kind of situation it be enshrined in law.

LSP, thank you for the link to the petition.

Also I suppose, instead of just hearing what goes on in your own back yard as it were which may be a small pool of people and backgrounds, now younger people are "mixing" with people sometimes from all over the world. Not just younger people are doing that, older ones too, but perhaps the older persons' subjects of conversation are sometimes a bit narrower[dare I say ]

Sometimes I dont think it is a hatred of men nina59, but a fear.
Some may have good reason after what they have been through?

I think though, that some of what happens, is that the younger generation live their lives with social media somewhat at the heart of that.
Whereas "in our day"[first time I have ever written that!]you might meet a few like-minded people about a subject, social media enables people to "meet" so many more "like-minded" people about a subject, which reinforces subject ideas. This heightens things?

nina i am so glad you have no concerns regarding males using female toilets and changing rooms. I hope you Daughters/ Granddaughters are never in fear

Anya, and me with you too. Bet we'd get on really well around a table. (smile)

This really will not do nina -I'm finding myself wholeheartedly in agreement with you again

Phew ... there's been a whole lot of comment since I last checked in here. I can see why people are concerned at the 'prospect' of anyone who identifies as a woman being able to access areas which are at present female only (loos being one example, Girl Guide and Brownie camps being another), but although I think I raised that issue initially, I wonder whether this is a moral panic in the making ... how many cases have there been of a man deciding to identify as a woman just to go into the ladies loos, I wonder? With regard to children's clubs which involve overnight stays, that's a difficult one. Is there anyone here who is a Guider or Brown Owl who could comment? What would you do? Also applies to girls transgendering to boys by the way.

Ankers, you must have the lions share in that case because they're thin on the ground where I am.

LSP, you're a bad advert for modern day feminism and I wish you'd stop for breath. It's people like you that spoil the earlier achievements of many true feminists. Unlike them you appear to have a hatred of men in general which dents the progress of the feminist movement today. We're laughed at instead of upheld because of spurious claims made by people like you.
You make so much noise highlighting a worst case scenario yet when asked what you plan to do about it, you don't have a plan. Instead you pass the buck to someone else citing that it's not YOUR job to sort it out.
Yet the best deals are always struck when those who do make a noise also have an alternative.

Over here in the UK we have a saying. Either pee in the pot or get off it. Whichever way, while you may have some valid points, they come across as extreme and unbalanced and as a woman hoping to improve things for the next generation of girls, I don't find your ranting helpful or even truthful.

nina1959.
I found myself last night googling public loos!
My general area has a lot more than my wider area for public loos. Who knew!

Ankers the fact is that transgender people are to be given recognition and certain rights.

Ankers, that's probably because it's so hard to find a public toilet in the UK.

Well, I looked up about the brownies, and that appears to be fact.
Ditto the army.
Ditto the government bill
Ditto trans activists
Ditto puberty blockers.

I had more trouble with toilets/swimming changing rooms[though if the bill passes I think that becomes rather obvious?] and gender assignment at birth.

Thanks Anya though for your points and advice. I appreciate it. I needed it! Probably still do!

And that's enough of me trying to educate in logical thinking.

Ankers just check out which bit (note the singular) is fact and how much more is hearsay or anecdotal or opinion!

I hope the above post was written ok. Perhaps there should not have been an exclamation mark after the word right.

I have no more to say to you Lumpy either.