Displaying emotions

Precisely.

"The names of more victims of the Grenfell Tower fire are expected to be released on Monday as the painstaking process of sifting through charred debris to find missing people continues."
"The latest death toll, according to the police, is 79, although five people previously thought to have perished have been discovered alive."

If they give what they say is a definite number, they will be asked next by the press for a list of names. Imagine if those five who have turned up alive had been on a list of the dead for their families to read?

She is not saying "Who cares about the other 30" she is saying that ANY number is a tragedy - and it doesn't really do us any good to know an exact figure, or even an estimate. It certainly doesn't do any good to catigate them for not releasing figures without a reasonable idea to base them on.

You have totally misinterpreted rosesarered's remark djen - she is saying that this is a terrible tragedy and, as I said, it is those who are directly involved who need to know just who was there and who lost their lives at the moment until all the painstaking work is completed.

Yes, it is and I am not sure why people other than those who have lost someone need to know numbers at the moment. There will be painstaking work undertaken to establish who was there but we may never know as there may have been visitors or people who were away, as another poster said.

Actually, roses, I find that a terrible thing to say - 70 or a hundred - who cares about the odd thirty. Why get worked up about numbers?
That must rank as one of the worst things you have ever said on here.

skwawkbox.org/2017/06/19/heartbreaking-video-as-grenfell-residents-count-out-their-true-toll/

These aren't guessing.

Exactly Jalima Lily Allen should be quiet, she is guessing at numbers.
In any case why are people getting worked up about numbers? Seventy or a hundred, it's all tragic and terrible.

I think the police are quite angry about Lily Allen and her pronouncements according to the news the other day. They make announcements when they are sure and as things are at the moment the firefighters are doing a very dangerous job to try to account for people.

George Michael may have been a celeb but the charity work he did including working for the homeless etc was without photographers there to document his every move and was not for self-publicity.

I find this thread a bit strange, to be honest. Do we need people to show their feelings? Well, yes...I think we want to know that people understand and respond to the pain of others. As human beings, it seems quite natural to expect some sign of empathy towards people in the throes of grief and pain, and we are understandably doubtful of people who seem incapable of showing warmth towards those who are suffering.

I don't think anyone expected May to break down in floods of tears over Grenfell Tower but it seems to me that any normal human being reaches out towards people in pain and, if possible, tries to comfort them. Corbyn has been criticised for hugging people, as if that makes him a phoney, but it just seems a human thing to do. Ditto the Prince, who naturally hugged an old lady grieving for her husband. I'm not trying to make this political - I'm a republican with no time for the monarchy but, at least, they tried. I don't think emotion comes naturally to the Queen, on account of her upbringing, but she did make the effort to look as if she had some inkling of what the survivors were going through. I'm afraid Theresa May just comes over as robotic. Maybe it's her manner but it's also the result of her opinions.

As for celebs, if lending their names gets publicity - whether it's for fund-raising or for campaigning - is that such a terrible thing?

Prince William has worked on rescue helicopters, so he was the right one to go with his gran

Yes, I thought he was the right choice to go with her too; he has seen tragedy albeit on a different scale, rescued people and knows how the rescue services work.

I think that HM and the royals who are above politics are, in times of tragedy like this, a focal point for many people, a symbol that is enduring and perhaps what some, not all, people need at times like this as they were during war-time.

HM is not going to start crying and hugging either, but will listen to people. Added to which she is showing that she genuinely cares and who knows what pressure she does bring to bear behind the scenes to those who need to take action?

I have no time for celebs and their photo opportunities which are all about them and not about the victims.

Devorgirl, I have already spoken of some bodies being fused but to accuse the authorities of deliberately withholding numbers isn't fair and then to quote a Lilly Allen and her guestamate is so wrong, has sge been in and counted the bodies?

All Chinese whispers , there is no reason not to disclose the numbers of fatalities when there is a definite number

skwawkbox.org/2017/06/19/heartbreaking-video-as-grenfell-residents-count-out-their-true-toll/

I think he first reaction is to assume that the authorities have all the information to hand but are not releasing it, but in this kind of situation facts arrive a few at a time and quite unco-ordinated. The first imperative is to rescue as many people as possible and the next is to try to prevent damage and destrcution.

There is probably a lot of dupication as one informant may say that they know of, say, Harry and Elizabeth XXXX and their schoolage children Ann and Tom, while someone else mentions Betty XXXX and her daughter Annabel. Meanwhile another hasn't seen Lizzie X and her baby since the fire, and Henry XXXX hasn't been in to work. These could all be the same family known differently to different neighbours.

annie I think as has already been posted, it is pointless waiting for ' a true number' because some bodies will have disappeared or been fused with others; sorry to be gruesome but appallingly that will be the case at such high temperatures, you only need to look at the damage to the flats to accept that.

Yes thanks elegran. My brief comments x posted with your clear well comments formed one. I posted quickly because whilst I sympathise with the demands fro those directly involved, I was su prised that some posters seemed not to hav listened to the information from the emergency services

Good post Elegran , calm and logical

Trisher, it is so wrong to give estimates, these are human beings, I don't want the authorities to say think of a number and add 10. We had estimates during the foot and mouth epidemic

They will revise the number when they have a true number not a wild guess.

The senior met officer has painstakingly explained the various reasons why exact or estimated figures of how many people were killed in this fire.

It will be revised and it will rise-little doubt about that.

About two hours ago an official figure of 79 'dead and missing' was released. I hope it is true as it could have been much worse considering what happened. Apparently 18 people remain in hospital. They did say it might have to be revised.

If the fire was hot enough, there may not even be bodies to count. They will have lists of people paying rent, but they may not have lists of how many were actually living there, and if they did, they may not have been at home that night, or there may have been others visiting. If children didn't turn up for school, that could be checked against addresses, but the school can't report that the child is dead, only that he/she is not at school, and they may be in hospital, living with relatives, taken to another town by family and friends. The electoral roll may give numbers of people of the age to vote.

All this takes time and manpower to collect information and collate it, even to get approximate figures. It is easy to say that they should know, but anyone who had kept a dossier on each flat and the comings and goings would be in trouble for invading their privacy.

The best people to ask would be their neighbours who know who lived where and whether they have heard that they are safe. This is where the reports are coming from, but even that isn't conclusive. There may not even be neighbours still alive to list them.

It isn't a question of 'smuggling out bodies' Annie simply of trying to mitigate the anger by slowly feeding information rather than giving a high estimate immediately.

"Have we become too touchy feely?"

Yes in my view - I actively resist hugs and kisses from anyone other than family and close friends. I care, have feelings, and I love a hug from a loved one, but not from any Tom, Dick or Harriette. (I wouldn't say no to prince Harry).

Also, given that we are such a multicultured society, (and certainly the tenants of Grenfell Tower were) we need to be aware of the mores of others. If I wish to show empathy, I find a light touch on the arm works well and rarely offends.

The Queen gets it right but partly because few people disrespect her. It was beyond the pale to call Theresa a ' murderer' as though she is not a human being with feelings. The Management Committee of the Flats surely holds first responsibility for the fire although if they were assured by experts and safety inspectors that all was well, they can hardly be blamed. Presumably the tenanrs would also have turned to their MP and maybe the mayor, but we do not hear these being blamed?

Apologies if any of above not relevant I confess I did not read all the posts.