Referendum

I'd still vote Remain. I want my grandchildren to have the same chances to travel and work abroad, if they wish to, that we had. I don't want the UK to be a country where people from the rest of Europe feel unwelcome. I think we need them for the NHS above all and they shouldn't feel they're here on sufferance. And we were doing well in the EU, second largest economy ahead of France.

With MPs and most others seemingly not wanting “no deal,” a second vote that gives a Leave result will be really counter productive. The general public being interviewed by media are predominantly leave, so we might not like the result.

TM still has a lot of power and will resist a second vote to the end, wether MPs will force a vote is uncertain, if they do who will decide what the question is!

A can of worms

Could you give a link to the origin of the graph you posted at 0205h, Daddima?

I think that Daddima may have got the graphic from twitter, maggie. That's where I've seen it before. But if you enlarge it you'll find a link on it to the source of the figures. Figures are from 2014 so rather lower than more up to date ones but the principle remains the same; we get back in revenue far more than we put in.

There was an interesting interview on BBC Look East last evening with a lady from Lowestoft representing the diminishing fishing industry (only 9 boats now in Lowestoft). 80% of the fishing in our waters is done by EU boats.

It seems that yes, we will regain our fishing rights to our own waters - but only for one day, as the following day the French (and possibly others) will gain full rights to fish our waters. This being part of the agreement in order to get the French to sign up to it.

There are agreements already in place of which we know nowt - unless you’ve read the 500+ pages. The lies are still there, they’re just being kept quiet.

I had a quick look at the HM Treasury Analysis (quoted as the source of the figures in the graph Daddima posted). Quick as I'm just on my way out and because I'm no expert. But it seems to me that the Analysis is nowhere near as simplistic as the person who devised this graph has made it out to be. We can all cherry pick certain figures and skew them to our own ends.

I prefer to look at actual in and out costs from what I believe to be a reputable source.

fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-biggest-contributors-eu-budget/

But that’s one less vote for leave. You have to vote just to shut the remoaners up!

Chucky your outburst simply confirms my earlier opinion. I think you are one who doesn't believe in democracy. What is undemocratic in asking the country to vote on known facts rather than fantasy? Just to clarify, because you clearly do not understand, it is not the vote which is forever, it is leaving the EU which is forever. Obvious surely? Still no response from any leavers on why they are frightened of another vote which leaves me thinking it worries them that they might lose.

I am disturbed at the number of people who are basing their opinions on historical things which are no longer relevant. Our focus should be on what we think is best for the future of our young people, not something we remember from years ago. No point thinking about whether it was better in the past, we can't go back to anything, we have to live in the world as it is today. What is the likely outcome if we leave? What is the likely outcome if we stay? So far, economically, the £ has dropped by 20%, the housing market has stalled. I'm worried about the economy.

Well said Blencathra

You're looking at something completely different on fullfact, Maggiemaybe.

The graphic is not showing 'in /out' costs; it's showing the returns to the UK through trade.

In terms of the current ongoing debate neither of them are able to show the projected future costs of setting up and running all the shared services, such as regulatory bodies, we currently contribute to through our membership contribution.

I dislike the simplistic 'club subscription' analogy but, hell, if you subscribe to a golf club you don't expect to get the full value of your subscription back in the form of cheaper rounds of golf. It also covers staff costs and upkeep of the course and clubhouse. It would cost you an awful lot more if you were to try and set up your own private golf course...

I had coffee with a friend yesterday, we have opposing views on Brexit but we didn't call each other names or hurl abuse. We had a reasonable discussion. What a shame some can't do that on here.

I did indeed get the graph from Twitter.

Well said Nonnie!

I like the golf club subscription analogy MaizieD

I'm sure someone will pick a few holes in it, Jane10.

If you take a look at the link provided by Maggiemaybe you will see that we are one of the few countries within the EU that puts in more than we get back - and those figures are several years out of date. Then take a look at the far larger list of countries who get back more than they put in - this is simply not sustainable in the long term. And, of course, there are several other countries who will be EU members soon and, guess what, almost all of them are likely to fall into the "get back more than they pay" category.

Full Fact are an independent fack-checking charity who take no sides and merely investigate political claims across the board. I used them a lot during the Brexit campaign for unbiased information - instead of believing the bullshit that was being propagated on both sides of the argument.

Thanks justanovice

A lot of what is being said about what the EU costs us, what we get out of it, who is running it, the economy of the various countries etc is completely irrelevant to our decision about what we should do. We can't change any of that and no system is perfect. We should be informing our choices on what is best for us in the long term. That is all that matters, the rest is just a side show.

Yes, what is best for us is to get out of the EU as soon as possible!

Then take a look at the far larger list of countries who get back more than they put in - this is simply not sustainable in the long term

As I understand it the EU gives more to these countries to help them to develop their economies. As their economies develop and their GDP rises their contributions will increase (as contributions are calculated on GDP) and they will receive less from the EU 'pot'. With less money going to help the developing economies less will be required from the more 'developed countries.

I realise that no system is ever perfect and that there will always be some inequalities, but as all the EU member states are showing better growth than the UK over the past couple of years it does look as though the the EU system is doing what it is mean to be doing, supporting growth in all the member states.

Doesn't look as if there will be another vote ...well not a public one.The dictator in chief thinks its her way or no way and the rest of us INCLUDING our elected representatives aren't getting much if any say at all .
This isn't an election that can be rerun in 5 (yes the tories chaged those rules too) years ,but we will have to live with it for a very long time.WE deserve the chance to vote now when we know a bit more of the detail...thaough I'd prefer to know a lot more detail .

paddyann wasn't it Gordon Brown who changed the rules? I'm not sure.

Nonnie, it was DC in 2011.

Thanks, I hadn't checked it, just remembered someone saying it was GB.

Very interesting that on this thread several people have made their opinions very strongly but not answered the questions I have asked. One asked for three reasons why we should remain and I gave them but not a word since.

A couple of people have responded but not with any reasoned argument. Seems to me it is not a debate or discussion if all you do is talk and not listen.

Nonnie it's not clear to me whether Leavers have any concrete advantages to put in favour of their position - it seems to be more abstract along the lies of 'sovereignty', 'independent nation' etc.