Daughter refusing all contact with me.

"ingratiating themselves to him/her". not "how" Sorry!

jennymolly. Thanks for your kind reply. I was sure you had always written to and kept open contact with your daughter which is why I was rather upset by people who were telling you to get in touch. Also, without knowing her or her husband, they were telling you what to say! She is clearly married to a bad man. He may have complete control over her. Indeed he does have control over her. He has cut her off from her family. But imh experience (I have been a Counselling Psychologist) there is nothing you can do about either of them except keep your door open to her.
As for the odd person(s) criticising the comment made 17 yrs ago! I really cannot see how people can be judgemental about such a thing! The circumstances were and are very trying to say the least and he was running up debts! He is a wicked man. I have to tell you that this situation is all because of him and you will not be able to change him. The only thing I can think of is that you write to your daughter at her place of work. If the letter goes to her home he will read it and order her about.
I know with people like him there is nothing you can do. People who say always include him in the hope he will not feel upset or whatever do not know what he is like or capable of.
This man, this parasite, has features of psychopathy, and those features are not changeable by anyone least of all us ordinary folk. Your daughter is codependent to him. She is maintaining his behaviour, possibly through shame about knowing what he is like. He does not think or reason like a normal person and there is no hope of a normal rational discussion with him. He will just hurt you all the more. The going to relatives to blacken your name is a well-known tactic of these people. People call it using "flying monkeys" against you. I very strongly suspect he is a malignant narcissist with psychopathic tendencies. The things that they have said and done - he has said and done because it all comes from him - strongly suggest this. These people are very manipulative, cunning, dangerous, liars, utterly selfish, and cruel. It is not possible to reason with them. They take a victim by ingratiating themselves to how/her (usually her because most malignant narcissists are men) and going through the "love bombing" phase. Then they change and start to abuse their victim whom they have captured completely and ensured she cannot seek help. Their abuse is utterly despicable. They run their victim down until she has no self-esteem and does not know who she is. She does everything he demands out of fear. She ceases to understand what is normal in a relationship and thinks his way is normal. She cannot do anything without his controlling her. That is why a letter sent to your daughter at her place of work simply saying how much you love her and that she is always welcome to come to you, is the best way. Do not try and discuss your decisions regarding anything especially your will. You have made your decision and that is a closed matter now. Smile and move on.
Regarding people discussing whether one should always make a will evenly distributed between offspring or never leave to children etc, I would say ignore them. They do not know you or why you made your decision. You have the right to do whatever you choose in your will and there is no need to justify your decisions at all, especially here.
I shall leave money in trust to my disabled grandson for his education. When he reaches 18 he will find that careers he might have liked will not be open to him. He will need extra equipment and that which is provided is not very good and often needs to be paid for anyway. I shall also leave a sum towards the care of any of my dogs that outlive me. Luckily my children have not expressed any dissent. The grandson of similar age to my disabled one has told me it is a good idea! But I am lucky. Apart from other terrible things I have had to cope with, on this at least things are running smoothly.
Sometimes we have to let go of people. We never expect to lose touch with a very much loved child. So send the letter. Even send a regular little card to her place of work telling her you always think of her and love her. She is with a man who is poisonous, I think he is controlling your daughter (see; www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/friendship-20/201506/20-signs-your-partner-is-controlling )
Your daughter is in a toxic relationship. Women in this position have to behave as if they are in agreement with a controlling partner. By sending her little messages that he cannot find, you are letting her see that she has a way to escape. Please google "toxic relationship, or emotional abuse" and see what it might be like for her. If he does no housework, cuts her off from her parents, spends money on her card and hides the receipts, I guarantee he is controlling her. She needs to learn what a toxic, controlling relationship is and what her rights are. She needs to have her own bank account that he does not know about. You might even start saving for her. You could even go online and find some appropriate pointers describing a toxic or controlling relationship and print them out and send them without commenting on them. I would amend your will so that he gets none of your money. Really. He expects your daughter to keep him. Give her an opportunity to escape.

Incidentally the following list are examples of what constitute "Unreasonable Behaviour" in a Divorce:
Lack of emotional support
Violence / Physical abuse
Verbal abuse
§Financially irresponsible e.g. failure to support the family, household costs.
§Lack of support in general, around the house, in your career etc
§Gambling on a frequent basis and/or creating debt without your knowledge
Drug/alcohol abuse
Refusal to discuss/work on issues within the marriage
Not wanting to engage in any sexual or physical relations
Limited socialising happens as a couple
§ 3 you already know about
then in coercion and control which is an offence under the Law, comes isolating the partner from their family - whether or not it seems as if the person agrees, because their agreement has been made under duress.
I am sure your daughter is in such a situation, and has been brainwashed by this evil man. You could learn as much as you can online by reading articles under Coercion and Control, or abusive relationships, or toxic relationships. I find the fact that he neither goes out to work nor does house work very significant and that he ran up debts on her card behind her back and she had to pay them off is an offence. She seems unaware of the kind of relationship she is in. Please don't assume she is speaking her own mind. After some time has passed, she would have become almost the same as in a hostage situation. She will have become brainwashed, scared to disagree with him and unable to imagine a different life. She will believe the wicked things he has said about you, he wants to split her away from any support from family or friends. You knew her so differently before this man appeared, remember. Hold on to that and we shall pray you get your daughter back in more ways than one.

www.vivianmcgrath.com/emotional-abuse-signs/
closeronline.co.uk/life-style/relationships/coercive-control-law-definition-warning-signs-ways-seek-help/
speakoutloud.net/helping-victims-survivors/mothers-concerned-for-daughters-in-abusive-relationships

With love

Maggiemaybe....I agree with your comments completely ?

So sorry to read your post. Life can sometimes be very cruel and often it is impossible to fathom out why people behave the way they do.....you will never stop loving your daughter but perhaps you need to accept that she has lost her way a little and try to just accept the situation. If you have faith, say a prayer for her and her partner and leave it to God...look for all the other joys you have in your life and try to concentrate on them.....this is so easy to write but difficult to do but it just might help you find a little peace. I leave you with one thought.....love of money has never led anyone to lasting happiness but true love for another person lasts for ever and nothing will destroy it.
I hope all goes well with you and your husband. Take carex

Yes Maggiemaybe - I do think, for a father - seeing his daughter (who 17 years ago would have been just 30) working 2 jobs 7 days a week to pay off debts run up by her partner who didn't work - it would have been near impossible to say nothing.

And as the earlier post, daughter isn't getting less than the son, they both get 42.5%, with the one grandchild getting 15%. I like it! My parents did something similar, with my eldest sisters eldest daughter getting a flat £2,000 before the rest was split between us three daughters, this despite there being 8 grandchildren (and 2 great-grandchildren) when both my parents died. We three knew how much they loved my eldest niece (the only person to query it was in fact my eldest sister who had another 4 children, and even then not suggesting a "sum" for her 2 sons but for her 2 younger daughters).

I admire you, Jennymolly, for telling your daughter (and son) now too about your plans. Maybe all that hate and vitriol you got from your daughter and her partner would have been directed at your son at a time of mourning - not good!

I have fallen out with my daughter but I have told my son I will never cut her out of my will, as she is my daughter no matter what. We hardly speak now and I find that sad.

our daughter had found out that her partner was running up bills on her card and hiding the receipts etc. They were getting in debt because of his secret spending and our daughter was working 7 days a week to pay off HIS debts. Also she was doing all the shopping cleaning cooking etc whilst he did nothing

Yes, he sounds like an absolute darling. How unkind of your DH to make a critical remark (once, 17 years ago) and hurt his feelings. No control going on there at all.

The SIL doesn't sound controlling at all, actually. OP's husband made an inappropriate remark, to which SIL not unreasonably took offense.

I do not think the daughter's behaviour about the will was appropriate. At all. But I do think OP has made her opinion of her SIL rather clear, and I am not surprised he's chosen not to attend family gatherings.

Note that the daughter has continued to attend family gatherings alone. If SIL was that controlling, would he allow her to come?

Your son in law sounds very controlling, he has caused such a fracture in your family & treated you with contempt for years, i feel you & your daughter have both suffered. Keeping the lines open & the ball in her court is the kindest way really. You were right to make everyone aware of your will, it is very fair & actually rather generous given her behavior. Try to be kind to yourselves.

I would cancel their share and go on a cruise with it. I know it's hurtful but the odd thing is if you run after someone they don't run after you. When you start running the other way nine times out of ten they are behind you. Try it. It can't do much more harm and you might feel better.

jennymolly forgive me, you praise your son so much ,perfect son, husband, father. You even told your daughter of your will to save your son upset after your death. Your daughter lives a different life to your son, it’s her life.

If you love your daughter please tell her you love her and will be here for her if she needs you.

My elder daughter took her life 15 months ago , the one thing I can hold onto is I always told her how much l loved her from when she was conceived and this love never, ever
changed and I would be here for her no matter what she said or did. She was the same age as your daughter

It's been seventeen years with very little contact. That's a whole lifetime.

I think the advice you have been given to look into grief counselling - ideally with someone who specialises in family breakdown - is sound advice.

I think it vanishingly unlikely that after 17 years of minimal contact, and now a major row after which you've been cut off, that the relationship will be repaired. I think though there would be great benefit in you getting professional help to deal with the pain of separation and to come to terms with the situation.

Thanks everyone for your advise and just listening. I have written many times to my daughter asking to meet and talk through our problems. I've told her that my door is always open. I've suggested that if we meet she can bring a friend as a mediator with her but everything is rejected. DD never wanted children and her partner hasn't worked for years because he doesn't want to.
Our DS on the other hand works very very hard running the home, shopping, doing all repairs himself on their car and household maintenance and bringing up their lively and totally delightful toddler daughter. DIL and DS chose to run their family this way as DIL has a higher paid job than DS had and did not want DGD put into a nursery. To say that DDs partner and our DS circumstances are similar are very very far from the truth. We told DD of our Wills to save out DS distress from his sister after we are gone.

I tend to agree with Margot3 about possibly removing your daughter from your will altogether - even though you say how much you love her, it doesn't sound like she deserves it at all! However, I do hope the breach can be mended. Does she know about your and your husband's health situation? If she does I'd find her behaviour beyond contempt, if she doesn't maybe you should find a way to let her know and see if that makes her realise that in fact you really are loved and she should make contact again. I wait to see if I get shot down in flames for this point of view ..

A girlfriend of mine told me of a similar situation where her father told the family members what is in the will and now that family are all estranged. They are all fighting and sibling are pitted against each other. It has caused a lot of grief and problems for the ageing parents. Dumb thing to do. One of the siblings has been a great support to parents over many years and had invested money in the business to keep it going. The others have not. Unless all the shares are equal not a good idea.

I'm also a great believer in leaving equal shares to the family. My two children get 50% each, and they are expected to look after their own children when their time comes.

Leaving money to a child is not necessary in my book.

I agree with the comments from both agnurse and willa45. I do hope you think of writing to your daughter and her partner along these lines. However, the only thing I would want to add is to try and include your DD’s partner in your message too. I feel that your words needs to be inclusive of him too in order to go some way towards healing the earlier rift.

E.g. Something along the lines of: ‘Our door will always remain open to you both as we care for you and deeply regret etc.....’’Never been our intention to slight or offend either of you etc...’ ‘We really would like to see you both...’

Personally, I wouldn’t have commented on their homelife all those years ago and I understand why this could have upset them. But we all put our foot in it now and again and it’s a shame that they haven’t felt able to move on, forgive and forget, all this time later.

I personally think that all you’ve done with your will is perfectly reasonable and fair. As someone else commented, it is only 7.5% less for them after all.

Your DD’s partner does sound to be unreasonable and at the heart of the current problems, but in order to turn the situation around you need to include him in any conciliatory words.

I’m very sorry that you and your dh have been so unwell. Sending you every good wish ?

sorry DGD. I can't do the initials! I meant your grand daughter!

MawBroon
What? How can you say
"It didn’t do King Lear any good."?
King Lear didn't do what jennymolly and her DH are doing! I think you have forgotten the plot!

jennymolly. I'm back because I feel I did not support you properly! Your decisions are yours to make! You cannot be criticised for them! Please do not let any comments here suggest to you that you have done something wrong! You have made a decision about your will and your family. I find your decision very good. I cannot see why your daughter who has no children could be so unkind to her nephew! I also do not think it matters about the DGS's father being a stay-at -home Dad. That is their arrangement and they are not at all the only couple to decide to do this!
Nothing matters about the details of the family now, because you have made your decision with love. It is a fair one.

My mother used to say she was leaving everything to the retired Donkey's! Sadly as she had Alzheimer's there was little left anyway after having to pay for her care!

Try not to take on your children's moods and upsets jennymolly, they have to sort those out themselves. I do hope you and your DH start to feel much better soon. Lots of love.

How would you feel if your daughter came to your home and said, "Why isn't Dad doing more to help you around the house? He's retired now, he should be doing his fair share." What would your response be?

Agnurse Frankly my response to that would be " You could have a point. Let me think about that! I plan to discuss some new work/life balance now that he is retired! Do you fancy a cup of tea?"

What I would categorically NOT do is flounce off, throw anyone out the house, refuse to see them etc etc etc! Such a remark doesn't have to be instantly confrontational or hurtful or merit a load of drama! It could be meant kindly even if badly expressed!
My overall instinctive response to behaviour like that as a response to the example you gave would be "Oh grow up!"

jennymolly. I simply want to send my love. I do hope you and your husband are feeling reasonably well. I am so very sorry about your family problems. I can sympathise, having had my share too. I cannot come up with a clever idea or solution. I think you and your DH must try and enjoy as much time together as you can and remember that you have done the right thing. What you have decided, you decided with love in your hearts. Personally I think it is an excellent solution. I am about to re-do my will as it is out of date. I have thought of dividing it in percentages too because I have a disabled DGS.

I have found being old so much harder than I ever dreamed it would be and your letter today underlines this.
Remember, you have done the right and the kindest thing. It is entirely your decision to make. If they are going to behave like spoilt children then that is their problem. I have had to become very tough about my children's reactions as it is the only way I can manage to keep going. I expect your DD who has the mean husband is influenced by him. But it is impossible for us to do or say anything.

Dear Jennymolly, try and take care of yourself and DH, do try and leave them to sort themselves out, after all, they are adults!
God bless you both. With lots of love

Maggiemaybe

Parents should never get involved in the relationship issues of their adult children, and adult children should never ask their parents to get involved. A parent's instinct is to always protect a child. That's natural. That's normal. But it also means, by definition, that a parent is not a neutral third party.

Actually, in the case of physical abuse, if a parent tries to intervene, the abuser could well escalate the abuse. It's a documented fact that the most dangerous time for someone who is being abused is when he or she tries to leave the relationship. The abuse can escalate and even become homicidal.

Once your children become adults, they are peers with you. A parent does not become some type of "super adult" to whom the child is permanently subordinate. It's inappropriate for a parent to criticize a child's partner or lifestyle.

maddyone

FIL's history includes:

-writing Hubby off because he's autistic
-taking his children to visit GFIL who was emotionally and physically abusive to all of his children (and did unspeakable acts to his daughter that should have landed him in jail) and emotionally abusive to his grandchildren who were scared stiff of him
-body-shaming me and our impressionable young daughter (who subsequently developed issues with food)
-financially abusing us when he was renting a house from us
-telling my husband that he essentially couldn't see why we were together and that Hubby should have done better
-popping in and out of our lives whenever it suits him

DSD (14) wants little to do with him. I've already told Hubby that if we have more children, FIL will not be seeing them. Do you think he's a safe person to have around children?

The reality is that you cannot force a relationship with an adult who does not want one. Nor can you force an adult to allow you a relationship with their minor children.

This post, and thankyou for it, Jenny has certainly brought up many intense feelings.
I tend to agree being scrupulously fair is the way to go.
Can you change the will?
My DGM mistakenly left the lion's share to her eldest DGC.
It couldn't be changed but my DM altered her own will to address the balance.