School parents join forces to fight ‘trans propaganda’

gagajo

why are you so patronizing and rude to me?
I don't care if you are a teacher you are not the font of all wisdom.
It seems that unless someone agrees with you you are against them.

I believe that it is possibly harmful to prescribe hormone blockers without more research done to find out if teens in fact do decide to remain the sex they were born into when they reach the age of 18 or 19.
Taking hormone blockers is messing about with stuff we know very little about.
It is not your body, it is someone else's.
I see that young people are incredibly unhappy and suffering for many reasons at this time.
We are living at a time of great changes and a lot of them are scary.

I still think it would be good to give them tons of support and to make it acceptable to be more gender fluid while young.......the brain is fluid and people have to find out who they are.

There's some interesting research from Oxford University that raises concerns about children being started on a medical path too early.
I begin to fear we're medicalising the very ordinary confusions, uncertainties and insecurities that are part of growing up.

I have NEVER met anyone who has told a child they are in the wrong body.

I didn't say anyone would tell a specific child that they are in the wrong body.
I said children are being told that they (in general) might be in the wrong body.
For example, they get this message from teaching materials such as the BBC video I posted and which was praised by gagajo.

Sorry should have edited that.
I mean of course, that I simply can't see posts from anyone that are unkind or unfair to children who are struggling with their gender/sexuality/emotional or psychological well being.

Doodledog, I must be on that other thread with you. You know, the one that accuses some of us of not being kind or fair.

Lot of posts about I/my child wore male/female clothing and grew out of it. so trans children will if you read all the thread. Children are suffering and if you block their access to help or insist they just don't know them selves you increase that suffering.

I don't know if I am reading a different thread; but who has said that changing dress is all there is to it. Nobody has said that dressing differently is the same as feeling you are in the wrong body (have they?). Who has said that they want children to suffer?

I mentioned being kind and fair, but not that I advocate telling children that they are not what they say they are.

It really does feel as though people are talking to themselves on this thread.

The reasons people may not accept trans gender children seem to be that they don't think children can decide such things. People seem to think just changing the way they dress will alleviate their distress. The point is it won't. And there is a huge difference between just dressing differently and feeling you have the wrong body. I can't think why anyone would want such children to suffer more. It's not being either fair or kind to tell them they can't be what they say they are.

I was going to stay off this thread; but have to say that I think a lot of posts are being misread, or not considered at all.

Nobody, as far as I can see, is saying that the reason they have misgivings about young people being offered drugs and/or surgery is because they are 'deviant'.

People have patiently explained that this is not the case - and a few of us have said that gender is a societal construct, and that acceptance of 'deviant' behaviour (deviant in the sense of being different from the majority) would be preferable to medical intervention that simply replaces on set of gender-based norms for another.

This is not to be 'cruel and arrogant', IMO. It is said out of concern for young people, which is what everyone on this thread has in mind. We disagree on the best way of being fair and kind to young people, but not on the fact that this is what we would like to see.

Nothing went wrong hugshelp their are children and particularly teenagers who dress as they wish and sometimes it is boys in frocks.(who are happy to be boys) This liberality has enabled some people who had hidden for generations to open up about the very real pain they suffer because they feel they are in the wrong body and want to change. Unfortunately there are still those who see this as deviant and would like to stop them taking advantage of the medical developments which can help them acheive this..

I don't understand why it is harder for society to accept that anyone can behave completely outside of stereotypical gender expectations and still be a wonderful boy/girl than it is to accept that some people need to have medical intervention to live as the opposite or another gender. I don't know if this would have any effect on those who feel they are in the wrong body, but those who simply want to live as they perceive the opposite sex to live could simply do so. I really thought we were headed in that direction in the 70s, what went wrong?

Gagajo
No, I'm not arguing for arguing's sake. I just disagree with a lot of what you say, which is allowed on a discussion board. I do agree, however, that trans people should make their own decisions, which, if you'd read my posts, is what I have been saying all along.

How do you know what my personal experience is?

Gonegirl, yes, I agree that kids (and adults) should be able to behave (within reason) and wear what they wish.

Walliams

Why can't we just let kids behave, and wear, whatever they wish. No need for messing about with young bodies then. Thinking along the lines of David Williams' book, The Boy in a Dress.

#Utopia

Doodledog, you know what? Whatever I say, you want to argue. I'm out. I'm bored with this now.

I think it is the business of trans people to make their own decisions. NOT people who have no personal experience or input whatsoever. It is cruel and arrogant to assume we know better if it doesn't impinge on our own lives.

Over and out.

I'm quite aware of sexual fluidity, pinkquartz, my long term partners have been a man, a woman and back to men again. No need to label it. People are people.

That is extremely rude, and in the context of this thread ironic, as the majority of your posts seem to assume that the rest of us don't understand basic concepts. How was pinkquartz supposed to know about your sexuality, which is not, in any case, relevant to the topic being discussed?

If gender neutrality (or gender irrelevance) is seen as Utopia, is there not a danger of confused young people becoming casualties in the fight to achieve it?

I can't help thinking that those who are trans-gendered would be better served by 'society' (education, media, possibly religion) helping people of all 'kinds', for want of a better word, to be accepted and valued for who they are (and be happy with it), rather than the answer being that people transition and therefore live within different gender constraints, but with the added burden of having difficult lives.

I have no issue with anyone doing what makes them happy. I am not prejudiced against trans-people, transitioned or otherwise, but from the safety of a theoretical discussion such as this, which can't hurt anyone, I think that questions need to be asked about why transitioning should be necessary, and what we can do to reach a point where the answer to gender confusion is not radical surgery.

I'm quite aware of sexual fluidity, pinkquartz, my long term partners have been a man, a woman and back to men again. No need to label it. People are people.

Gonegirl, what someone else wants to do with what's in their pants, is, frankly, none of my business. The point about genitalia = gender is directed at someone who implied that trans people should just behave as the gender they felt they were without resorting to surgery or hormones. As IF they'd be allowed to do this. The gender police would then start screaming about men in women's toilets. As if it matters where someone urinates.

Doodledog, I couldn't agree more (gender is a social construct, and we should stop defining set gender roles). However, gender is probably the most rigidly enforced social system there is. Sexuality, race, class, nationality all pale in significance when compared to gender.

Until we get to that utopia (where people with penises can be men, women or something in,between and where people with vaginas can do the same), it is inevitable that those that feel uncomfortable in their role will do anything they can to fit in where they are most comfortable.

I had the trans girl I teach hanging out with her friends in my classroom at lunchtime today. She's trying again to be a boy. Because the pressure NOT to be what her biological sex is is too much. She's cut her hair, stopped wearing her customised school uniform. 'She still had on a full face of make-up AND was with all her female friends though. I feel so bad for her. It shouldn't be so hard to just be allowed to be who she feels she is.

And how many daddies without penises do they have in these other "cultures"? And how exactly does it work? grin

I'm not an anthropologist; but I think that in some Native American cultures there are several gender identities, which are valued equally. Also, in some Muslim cultures there is a 'third gender' which does not involve surgery, but can be a way for gay men to have sex.

I'm not sure that this is the point, though. The concept of assigned gender is that people treat girls and boys differently from birth, and encourage different behaviours from them. The most often mentioned way of doing this is to dress girls in pink and give them 'domestic' toys, whilst dressing boys in blue and giving then 'action' toys. This goes on to expectations of 'ladylike' or 'manly' behaviour from adults, with sanctions for those who act outside of these constraints.

Obviously, some children prefer toys (and clothes) associated with the other gender, but IMO that signifies nothing much at that age.

I admit to being confused when people argue on the one hand that gender is a construct (an argument with which I agree), and simultaneously that those who are unhappy in that constructed role should transition to the other gender, in order to comply with society's expectations for it. If it is a construct in the first place, why not encourage society to stop defining set gender roles, instead of leaving it to a few unhappy young people to take desperate measures to 'fit in'.

I think that this is happening to some extent. I liked to think that I brought my own children up to please themselves regarding gender roles; but when I see my younger friends and their children, I can see that they go a lot further in pursuit of gender neutrality.

Gonegirl, our genitalia denotes / signifies our gender in the culture we live in.

And how many daddies without penises do they have in these other "cultures"? And how exactly does it work?

GagaJo I am not saying that teens don't know what their sexuality or gender is I am saying it is all still fluid and really up for exploration.
And do not lecture me on about sexuality, I have been friends with both men and women who have been straight and gay and gay and straight.
I never meant we switch I keep saying we are actually more fluid than is recognised. Either way my experiences are also valid even if I don't know all the latest long words for such things!
I still don't believe that Hormone blocking is harmless. Nor is there enough evidence to say it doesn't have permanent effects.

Farnorth. OBVIOUSLY that is the difference between sexual orientation and gender identify. I'm pretty sure everyone commenting on this thread knew that before ever commenting.

My POINT if you'd read it properly, is that what is and is not considered a mental illness changes over time.

Once homosexuality was considered a mental illness, now it is not.
You are implying transsexuality/transgender is a mental illness. I do not believe it is.

Gonegirl, our genitalia denotes / signifies our gender in the culture we live in. In some other cultures, genitalia does not have to denote / signify gender. Most straight men would be horrified at the thought. This is a HUGE topic of discussion in the trans community. WHEN to tell your prospective partner/person you are dating, about your trans status.

If you're in a culture where genitalia = gender, then it is an issue for people who don't fit the gender they've been assigned.

I can't imagine there are many cis gender, heterosexual men who would accept a woman with a penis, on the basis that they identify as a woman and are accepting their genitalia because it doesn't define them.

We want to fit into the culture we live in. After breast cancer, I choose to have breast reconstruction. My boobs are numb because they are made from transplanted tissue. But I wanted them to look like a normal woman.

Farnorth, I don't know about the people you come into contact with, who work with young children. As a teacher, obviously I do that all day, every day. I have NEVER met anyone who has told a child they are in the wrong body. That is something that these children work out for themselves. As if a professional would ever do that.

There is a truly ridiculous amount of supposition, assumption and frankly, an insulting level of distrust of people that deal with children on a daily basis on this thread.

People who work with children are tracked and registered. We have a check done every time we seek employment. I know of teachers who are struck off the register for doing FAR FAR less than many of the things people on this thread accuse youth workers of doing.

What Jamie show?

You could say that if someone is born with a normal penis, he is a male, and needs to learn to live with that. With all appropriate help of course.

You could say that gender is decided at conception and choice doesn't come into it.

You could say those things. But I won't because I cba with the flack that would follow.

And then again, I saw a that Jamie show in London. And that was pretty convincing.

Who, amongst us ordinary, untrained, older generation really knows anything about this?

Perhaps though, some of you, being Mumsnet escapees, are not of the older generation.

So carry on.

gagajo said :
I would posit that 99.5% of us NEVER question [our gender identity]

That is unlikely to be the case for children who are being told, from a very young age, that they might be 'in the wrong body'.

Of course they will think about it and wonder if it could apply to them.

The number of girls being referred to the Tavistock Clinic has been increasing at a much greater rate than the number of boys.
Figures can be seen in this link :
www.transgendertrend.com/surge-referral-rates-girls-tavistock-continues-rise/

One reason, in my opinion, could be the easy availability of porn to young people, leading to the expectation of many that real sex has to be like porn sex - which now includes a lot of violence towards women.
That, and probably other factors to do with society's expectations of females, could cause girls to feel they want to identify out of being female.

I'm not suggesting that a girl makes a conscious choice, or that she might be pretending.
I'm suggesting that outside factors could be causing her to feel trans and that she needs counseling which acknowledges this possibility.