Trans Children

Hi trisher. You may have missed my earlier question in response to your comment:
No I'm saying that children and young people are choosing to be defined as non-binary which effectively answers those who are posting about gender roles being less defined

My reply was:
Thanks for responding. Sorry if I am being dim; but I don't understand, and would like to.
If gender roles were less divided (which they aren't just now), then why would there be a need for anyone to define at all? They could just 'be'.

Seemed like a pretty good idea to me giving cildren the right to wear what they want and be what they want. What's wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, if they are not also told that they must identify as the opposite sex in order to be what they want.

They are not FarNorth one of the things said in the video is"You can wear whatever you want." and "Boys can wear dresses". It's pretty harmless enthusiastic encouragement for all.
Doodledog if you don't understand I don't know how to explain it more clearly. You had best ignore it.

Doodledog if you don't understand I don't know how to explain it more clearly. You had best ignore it.
Rude. If your powers of explanation are not up to scratch, you had maybe best not set yourself up as an expert.

You said that Children and young people are choosing to be defined as non-binary which effectively answers those who are posting about gender roles being less defined

Children and young people choose to be defined as non-binary. Yes, that goes without saying. But how does this lead to the end of your sentence - which effectively answers those who are posting about gender roles being less defined?

My point is that if gender role became less defined, so that there was no 'girls' and boys' behaviour, there would be no such thing as 'gender neutral', as it wouldn't be an issue. If that were to happen, people wouldn't need to define themselves as any/either gender, so there would be no need for transitions from one assigned gender to another.

trisher - you seem to keep implying that any questioning of the way trans issues are being handles or promoted is equivalent to some sort of equivalent position on homosexuality. And yet many within the LGB community are very concerned with this themselves and see a degree of misogyny and homophobia with the new thinking and are concerned about the harm being done to children.

Pioneers of the gay rights movement in Britain have discussed forming a breakaway organisation from the Stonewall pressure group because they fear women and children are at risk from its transgender policy.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anti-women-trans-policy-may-split-stonewall-wfv2rp5cx?wgu=270525_54264_15691740568559_0fd8deca3d&wgexpiry=1576950056&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

22 signatories including Simon Fanshawe, who co-founded Stonewall in 1989, said it had “undermined women’s sex-based rights and protections”. They are most worried primary school children are too quickly challenged to review their gender identity.

Using "Boys can wear dresses" as though that's intrinsically part of the need to question your sexuality or gender is just conflating different things.

I read that article hugshelp and wanted to put it on here but hadn’t a clue how to.
So glad you have done it.

Doodledog I have never claimed to be an expert simply someone who believes in allowing people to live their lives as they wish.
You seem to be disputing a term in general use. It's pure semantics
hugshelp just as there are trans people who are prejudiced, there are gay people who are prejudiced and indeed straight people. Why should prejudice be confined to one lot of people? If someone is harming another person whatever their gender or sexuality they should be stopped. But I'm not sure what the internal disputes in Stonewall have to do with trans children.

I will try again. What am I saying that is 'just semantics'? I am saying that if (a) gender roles are assigned in ways that make children uncomfortable, so that they want to transition to another assignation, then (b) why not stop assigning those roles to those of a particular sex, so that they are not pressured into behaving in a particular way, and (c) will not, therefore, feel the need to transition, with all the physical and psychological trauma that this entails?

None of the above means that I do not want to allow people to live their lives as they wish. I absolutely do. What I take issue with is the assumption that being uncomfortable with a gender role should mean that someone has to change sex in order to comply with gender expectations, rather than society changing its expectations of how they should behave.

I am willing to listen to other arguments, but it gets tedious when the implication is that either I am a bit dim, or that I want to curtail the lives of other people. Neither is the case.

But it isn't a question of what society demands Doodlebug but of what the individual feels. No matter what society expects the body remains the same and it is the body which some feel is wrong.

That makes more sense, thanks.

I am not convinced that it is not expectations of what 'male' and 'female' behaviour should be that is behind a lot of gender confusion; but I will think about it with your comment in mind.

trisher - I have absolutely no idea what prejudice has got to do with anything I have been talking about.
I was trying to make the point that YOU seem to think anyone that has any concerns whatsoever about trans ideology being promoted to children may unduly influence SOME children to question their own gender, is the same as people saying homosexuality can be induced by social influence.
I mentioned the situation within stonewall to illustrate that within the gay community the difference is being recognised. Yet you dissmiss this as their prejudice.

You talk about breastbinding preventing suicide attempts yet give no evidence.

You said Can you post a single instance where the child has not initiated the idea, or is this just a figmentof your imagination?
I posted a link to a child who had been traumatised by trans idealogy and one where a destranistioner explains they misunderstood their depression and body dysmorphia due to being overweight as being trans. You chose to ignore those.
Well if those don't suffice, read this one:

thefederalist.com/2018/11/26/mom-dresses-six-year-old-son-girl-threatens-dad-losing-son-disagreeing/

"I learned of James’ plight on a recent visit to Plano, Texas, where I spoke to teenagers about my own transgender story. I lived through a similar scenario when I was his age. I was cross-dressed for two-and-a-half years by my grandmother, who made a purple chiffon dress for me. Somewhat like James, my cross-dressing occurred under one adult’s care, but away from grandma’s I was all boy with my mom and dad. Also, just like James, I found my way into the office of a gender therapist, who quickly started me toward transition."

You mentioned up thread that nobody is providing evidence, yet when we do you ignore it or say it is just prejudice. Where is your evidence? I just see you reasserting your stance and categorising any dissent as prejudice.

Which video do you mean, trisher?

It's pretty harmless enthusiastic encouragement for all.
How can you believe that?
Every video and article that I have seen, about trans children, emphasises the child's wish to look and act in ways that are seen as stereotypically of the opposite sex.
Often it's also obvious, as in the article about Luna, that adults have told the child that what they want is not appropriate for their sex.

Also, you didn't answer my question about the little girl you know, who says she is a boy.
Do her parents believe she is trans?

*I mean the UK Luna, not the American boy in the link posted by hugshelp.

This link wwas posted FarNorth
caldronpool.com/school-traumatizes-six-year-old-with-gender-fluidity-lessons-parents-file-human-rights-complaint/
If you read it the video being complained about is there. It's pretty harmless stuff.
I've never heard them refer to the girl as 'trans' she simply behaves and dresses as a boy and says she is one. The parents just love and accept her (haven't seen them for a bit as she has started school and may even be calling herself "he" now)

Like Teddy, in the video, I don't feel like 'she' or 'he' but I know I have a female body.
If I felt strongly about challenging our gendered language, I'd campaign for gender neutral pronouns for everyone.
That was suggested by some feminists, many years ago, but of course they got nowhere with it.

The article is about a little girl being upset and confused by that video, trisher, and I don't understand why you can't see how that would happen.

I hope those parents continue to be happy with how their daughter chooses to express herself and that they, and the school, do not encourage her to believe she really is a boy.

I am horrified by how casually you say may even be calling herself "he" now

The video should have stuck to saying "girls and boys can wear / play with / like anything that makes them happy".
End of story.

You said earlier that children express unhappiness with their body, which indicates that they are trans.
Can you not imagine that that unhappiness could come about because of adults' explanations to the child of how they know they are a boy or girl and how that means they should / shouldn't do certain things?

Be horrified then FarNorth none of us can help our prejudices we can only try to overcome them and allow indiviiduals to be what they want.

Expressing unhappiness with our bodies CAN be an indication of feeling / knowing that we feel we are misgendered, BUT can also mean that we are unhappy with our bodies.
That is why it is unwise to immediately jump to life changing conclusions. Time , care & continued support & professional input is essential to arrive at each personal conclusion & outcome

Here is an article about parents who are indeed allowing their child to be who he is :

metro.co.uk/2019/09/12/mum-hits-back-critics-call-gender-neutral-parenting-disgusting-10728957/?fbclid=IwAR1cc6D0B7J5mdKG2QCLANLNMVOFQ9U2xMI6AmkQ5zEoMS9Kit8FWh2lUQI

Btw, as you've chosen to call me prejudiced, trisher, I'll mention that your attitude seems to me to be very closed-minded.

Here's a quote from that article :

‘It means children don’t grow up feeling that they can’t be interested in certain things, they can be authentic without conforming to stereotypes that people have made up for them.

FarNorth as far as the little girl being upset I suppose she might have had some questions and had she been able to talk to her parents about it she might have taken it better.
Why is it "closed-minded" to think that you can adapt and try to make things as gender neutral as you like (and many of us have done this for years) you will still not change the feeling some people have that they have the wrong body.
The article by the way was the biggest bit of non-news I've read for a while. There are children all over behaving in similar ways without their mums being in the paper.

@arosebyanyothername I never let my children have guns either but my son made them out of Lego.

My son (and daughter) didn't.

Your point is, newnanny?

"I vividly remember lying awake mentally designing a device for preventing breasts, and imagining ways that I could pee standing up like my brothers. I also remember being given a toy ironing board for Christmas while my brother got a chemistry set. I was humiliated having to stand and pretend to iron clothes for the aunts and uncles while he was encouraged to perform scientific experiments. If anyone had told me that there was such a thing as being a boy trapped in a girl’s body I would have leapt at the opportunity."

www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/16369924.maggie-mellon-the-impact-on-children-of-accepting-transgender-ideology/#comments-anchor

Here is a video where a CofE school governor, who is a vicar, describes how new school policies were put in place with no written evidence for them and with no discussion being allowed.

youtu.be/iHQLmT5iOKo