Believing in Biological Sex - a Sacking Offence

Yennifer I am not being unkind, I am sorry if you think that. It comes down to the fact that we believe different things. I dont think transwomen are women, you do. It is ok for us both to believe different things. You talk about the oppression of transwomen as something to do with women. I dont agree. I dont think the oppression of the other groups is anything to do with womens rights either. It's fine that we dont agree on this. It's not an echo chamber.

Im going to have to leave this discussion completely because too many here are not open to honest discussion and twisting words or facts, or being plain unfriendly frankly.

The above comment being another case in point, I'm asking for trans women to be allowed into womanhood, I've never asked for them to be in our "safe spaces" not that I personally mind sharing the ladies toilets or changing rooms with trans women, as I use my own cubicle and am private anyway. I've been quite used to in the past sharing ladies toilets with self styled drag queens and honestly they were amazing but did hog the mirror.

I would never try to make that decision and trample others feelings though and keep stating I feel a compromise should be found.

Discussion cannot happen in echo Chambers where people just want an argument and put words in others mouths to achieve that.

Gay men are oppressed , discriminated against, murdered and attacked. Black men are oppressed discriminated against, murdered and attacked. Whst has that to do with womens spaces.

Again, how is this genuinely good, authentic trans peoples fault? Trans women are being oppressed, discriminated against, attacked and even murdered. If we don't stand with them, people who know the struggle against the patriarchy, who will?

It's a discussion now why? Because men have taken advantage of that to hurt women? Why blame trans people for that?

Because self-identification of sex is becoming increasingly accepted, even without the proposed change in the law, and most people are completely unaware that this is happening.

Mixed-sex wards in hospital were tried out, some years ago, and the idea was abandoned.
Now, though, a male patient simply has to claim that he is a woman and he will be in a female ward.

In prisons, of course, prisoners don't stay in a cell all the time. They have to mix with other prisoners.
Many women prisoners have experienced violence and abuse from men.
They should not be forced to be with men in a locked environment.

Yennifer, if trans people and trans activists want that, they are keeping very quiet about it.

Women who don't want transwomen in women's spaces are saying just that.
It is not up to women to come up with a solution. Trans people who don't want to be defined by their biological sex need to be the ones to come up with sensible solutions.

It's called a compromise, what the sensible people on either side who aren't vocally extreme generally want

Yennifer said “I'm the one who has suggested several times, separate secure spaces, toilets, cubicles, prison cells etc to keep everyone safe. Sorry”

But that’s not what trans-women want, is it? They’re not campaigning for secure spaces, they just want to use women’s safe spaces.

Its tricky isn't it. Only study from 2011 shows male level criminality in one cohort and not in another. The work done by fairplay for women shows 40 % of transgender prisoners have been convicted of a sexual offence. Again there are people who dispute this data although it appears to have been confirmed by the MOJ. This is very high compared to women prisoners. How are we to evaluate risk to women if we cant agree on the definition of sex. This was what the maya case was about.

Interesting debate, but what's it to do with the sacking of Maya Forstater?

I have read it. Male level of criminality in the first cohort. Second cohort unable to demonstrate this.

There seems go be far more concern about trans women (who were previously men or boys) than trans men ( who were previously women or girls).

The only trans person I actually know was a little girl who told her parents when she was two that she wanted to be a boy. She transitioned in her teens and is now a happy young man in his late twenties.

I don't see any point in talking it over further when you haven't actually understood the results and have twisted them to your narrative so as I said, I will leave you to it because it's pointless to continue

Galaxy Read the interview by the person who conducted the study. Your claims are wrong.

www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

Sorry men transitioning to women I mean.

You asked me about the crime rates of women transitioning to men. I answered, I am sorry if you didnt like the answer.

Are you talking to me Galaxy? I'm the one who has suggested several times, separate secure spaces, toilets, cubicles, prison cells etc to keep everyone safe. Sorry that doesn't suit your narrative, I can't work out what it is you actually want from this discussion so I'll leave you to it x

And anyone can be a feminist if they embrace the philosophy and want things to be different. Gender is irrelevant there are feminist men and there are women who don't even understand the meaning of the word.

The only study on crime and transwomen that I am aware of is the one from Sweden in 2011 it shows that transwomen commit crime at the same rate as men. It is not that transwomen commit crime more than others its that they commit crime at the same rate as men. That is the issue. As you are suggesting the removal of a layer of safeguarding for women I would suggest you would need to prove that transwomen commit violent crime at the same rate as women. Those who are reducing safeguarding need to demonstrate that women will not be at higher risk.

But petunia the way patriachy has always worked is to divide and rule, to castigate one section of society and laud another. So men were better than women, white people were better than black, the rich were better than the poor. The women's movement asked for equality, not special treatment, not to be better but simply to be equal and it brought with it a belief in tolerance and concern. Please let us continue with that aim and make things different, not fall into the trap of conflict.

Thank you Petunia for the best reasoned and most knowledgeable posts in this thread.

Ive been thinking about the transgender issues for some time now. In my darker moments it almost feels as though the unrest and disruption the transgender issue is causing is being orchestrated by someone in power. To bring down western civilisation....... but that's on a bad day.

Having read around the subject for some time Ive picked up some clues as to why there is an explosion of individuals who identify as trans. Can I stress I havent got all the answers, these are my opinions.

Anyway,this is what I have found out

It has been coming for some time. It has escalated in recent years due to several reasons. Mainly, because it can.
Social media is great at bringing like minded people together and allowing communication.It doesnt have to be the truth

Then there's twitter-going on twitter and looking at the stuff on and around transgender is mind blowing. Good and bad, its all there.

I think there's a political cause as well, particularly among the young who are much more inclined towards social justice causes. If you look at the left leaning political parties-the greens and lib dems in particular, they are very supportive, very woke and therefore look to transgender individuals as victims who need support.

There's the confusion and lostness and sometimes poor mental health of some young people that focus on gender as it seems to offer answers.

There's also the medical catch up so that medicine can now help with these individuals to help them greater achieve what they say they want.
Alongside that there is money to be made in drugs, medical treatments, surgery etc.

I think the traditional view of the transexual is probably old fashioned. The man who quietly tries to pass as a woman is probably a minority now.
Also, there is the kink section. The ones who get a thrill from dressing in women's clothes, get a thrill from getting into women's spaces etc.
Then there's the children. Children who are not gender conforming, the tom boys, the feminine boys. Transgender answers that one. One look at Google will explain why you little girl likes cars and trucks rather than dolls.
There's the gay person who culturally feels that being another gender would be more acceptable in their culture than being gay.

Education can also be partly to blame in children. Programmes that show children how to be supportive and inclusive are given to very young children who do not have the ability to think critically. My granddaughter (6) who still believes in Santa told me that a boy in her year was going to be a girl. I think in her head she believed that something like the tooth fairy would visit one night and POOOOFFF he was transformed into a girl

And in all this there are the ones who have gender dysphoria.

I'm sure there are other reasons but they can wait.

So its not straightforward. But I don't believe we should just swallow it down and accept it

This movement has the capacity to erode what it is to be a woman. We cant even agree on this thread, but I believe we should be having the discussion about what we want from the transgender movements women. We shouldn't wait to be told, by men, we can have what's left.

Word salad. Saying men commit the majority of violent sexual crime is not word salad. We segregate by sex partly because of this fact. I am talking about sex segregation. No one is saying this is the fault of trans people. It is not my dads fault that men commit violent sexual crime at that rate but it is one of the reasons he cant use womens facilities.

Are you saying that people transitioning from male to female are more dangerous? Where is your evidence of this?