Believing in Biological Sex - a Sacking Offence

That's chilling, newnanny.

Imho there's no way a child should be supported through this process at such s young age.

Hope the 11 year old is ok. Really makes you think about the damage that can be done.

Many of people who worked professionally at Tavistock clinic resigned as felt under pressure to diagnose as transexuals even when they did not agree. They said they feared being labelled transphobic if did not agree to give cross sex hormones or approve surgery. It is very worrying when children of 11 or 12 start along this path often without course of professional counselling first. GP refer to CAMHS but as waiting list is up to 18 months in our area of country, I don't know know how long to wait in other areas, the kids take first stepx in their own hands grow gair long, wear female clothing etc. and once out it is almost impossible for kids to row back whilst at school as other kids treat them differently often making them outcast. Many go to GLT grpups which become their only friends and encourage them to keep going. I just wish they would wait for professional counseling so they at least knew what getting themselves into and taking on. I knew one 11 year old boy who told me he did not understand he would be shunned by his school friends and his parents allowed him to transition whilst waiting for CAMHS appointment. School asked for him to wait until received counselling course but parents disagreed. He had hormone blockers at 12. In the end he tried to kill himself twice over a 1 year period and his parents ended up movong to another area of country to give him fresh start. I have lost touch with this child but often wonder how is now as would be 18 now. Getting opposite sex hormoones can affect future fertility whichmis explained and explored through councselling but too many start along route without realusing this.

I was thinking the same myself, purple.

Perhaps Maya will be more determined to appeal now that we have heard today that veganism is a philosphical belief and protected while, apparently believing in the fact that there are two sexes is not.

Thank you Varian

Well said Bridgeit

Why can’t we just accept we are Humans first & foremost,
A mixed bag of people, and why not recognise that changing a label to another label is still labelling .
Sadly some humans will always seek to harm other humans ,
but most of us just accept a person for the person that’s they are.

newnanny

what you are describing is what concerns me. That young people are in a way being encouraged to disfigure their bodies.
Your examples are very sad.
I can't forget how mixed up I was as a teen.
To "fix" a young person's gender and sex at that fragile stage in life is possibly going to be shown as a mistake.
It should not be done IMO
Which is not the same as not allowing TRA

It is fine for adults and young teens can be positively supported.
Why should we say there are only 2 genders?
Why can't we allow there to be an in between fluid gender?

At least these days you don't have to fit a tight stereotype. There are role models of fluid gender people.

I am less certain about the sex part.....biologically there are intersex, male and female.
Most of us are male or female.

@oldgimmer1 I have had 6 students who were transitioning. Some male to female and others female to male. 4 using clothing, growing hair/short hair cut but under CAMHS and hormone blockers which is step before giving opposite sex hormones. 2 having opposite sex hormones and 1 breast binding and one had double mastectomy. 1 boy who was adament he wanted to be female at school later tried to kill himself because he had taken female hormones and had some breast growth then changed his mind in work place but could not getcrid of breast. Girl who had double mastectomy later met a boy and wanted to start family and upset she had scared her body. She told me she enjoyed extra attention she got so felt she had to stay on route once on it. I realise not all transexuals will change their mind but many would be surprised at how many do regret it. We really need longitudinal reasearch that follows transgender people over time.

Gender is not fixed.
But I am not yet sure about sex. Wishing I was a boy when I was younger didn't do much and neither did it help my daughter who did not want to grow breasts.
Yet we both became happy to be women as we grew older......though I have never been very feminine and use girly girl as a term of abuse.
Daughter is very similar.
So to me it is the hormone blockers and surgery that cause concern.
What if if being gender fluid is another phase of maturing?
why not?
same as being attracted to same sex people. that is not fixed.
I have no problem with individuals living their lives peacefully.

Trisher
You could say it is similar except that no gay or lesbian ever wanted to cause a negative impact on women's rights and safe spaces.
There is the difference.
And the sports issue.
This is not the same at all really.

All it really amounts to is that gender and sexuality are not as fixed as we used to think they are.

@newnanny - have the pupils you've observed actually undertaken any surgery/ hormone treatments etc? Or are they identifying through clothing etc?

Biological sex includes the chromosomes you are born with either xx if female or xy if male, internal genetalia womb if female, external genetalia vagina or penis and secondary sex hormones oestrogen or testosterone as primary sex hormone produced. There are anomolies such ax males with an additional chromosome xyy or males with micro penis or internal testes that have never dropped down but still produce testosterone but the person presents as female external fenetalia as no penis, howevercthis is rare. Gender is masculine or feminine. My thoughts are you can't change biological sex eg chromosomes but can change gender with surgery. I don't think everything should be changed for about 2% of population who may at a later stage of their life change their mind back again anyway. As a Sixth Form Tutor I have seen many children become Transgender. In young teens I have observed it often seems like a way for a child to demand more attention and get others dancing to their tune. By 26+ the ones i have experience with have mostly wanted to revett back to biological sex.

You may be right after all the law has never been particularly on the side of womens rights. To conflate this issue with the campaign for gay and lesbian rights is not accurate as many in the lgb community would agree with.

It's almost 50 years (1972) since Jan Morris had what was then known as gender reassignment. She has lived as a woman since then. There are trans-women already living amongst us. I look on this issue much as the big fuss that was made when gay sex was made illegal. There were all sorts of warnings about how this would destroy society. There was initially a bit of sexual promiscuity but now things seem to have settled down and it turns out that what gay and lesbians really want is a settled relationship and someimes a family. I think this argument will go much the same way.

Trisher

yes you are correct about the judgement being something she put herself forward for. I hope this will be appealed as it is an issue that needs to be considered very carefully and maybe it will be.
Not to cause harm to either women or TRA people would be my wish.

I must go am too tired to think straight.

Petunia thank you for all your reasoned sensible posts on this thread. I note that your post of 21.20 hasn't garnered any response, maybe because it doesn't fit with the narrative some want to take.

pinkquartz she wasn't brought in front of a judge she chose to make an application that her belief that there are only 2 sexes should be given the same consideration as a religious belief. The judge did not want to look at the whole case but wanted a preliminary hearing, her legal team refused although the other party agreed. That's why she was before the judge. It was entirely her choice.
The judgement uses (as all legal rulings do) a number of other cases and their results. It references human rights and deals with every area. It isn't an "Assumption" judges tend not to make those, they rule on legal precedents and principles of rule established by earlier cases. There can only be an appeal if the judge has misused or mistaken one of these. Incidently I believe the judge was a woman.

Trisher Maya was not at work causing distress to others.
She wrote something in a tweet that led to her losing her job and then was brought in front of a judge.
This bothers me.

She is entitled to her own beliefs. Muslims have very extreme views on women and we allow them while disagreeing.
So why should Maya lose her job?

It is not as if she was bullying young people. We have already said what the person was like that she supposedly offended.
She called a grown man dressed as a man with a beard a man.......
I am sorry but I can not go against that....

None of this will help transitioning people IMO In fact it will more likely provoke a backlash.

Yes I can see the points that the Judge ruled on but a s a woman I don't think that will be helpful to women in general going forward.
You think you are more of a feminist for including Tra rights and I do not.
I would rather continue to want to protect women and also GRE people. As I have no problem with people switching gender. But it is people like the person in that case that will make it harder for everyone by causing a backlash.
I am also against self ID for sports.

At the end of his statement the judge make a conclusion based on an assumption he makes of Maya...........

"I conclude from this, and the totality of the evidence, that the Claimant is
absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment. The approach is not worthy of respect in a democracy"

but........

.* While the Claimant will as a matter of courtesy use preferred pronouns she will not as part of her belief ever accept that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man a man, however hurtful it is to others.*

..............so maybe there will be an appeal.

Excellent sensible comments Petunia

Why do trans women seek to access female only spaces?
I have just reread an article written at the time when the women's only swimming pond at Hampstead Heath was opened up to allow trans women in. Let me show you the quote

“As a trans woman, that women-only space has been of huge benefit to me, it’s been a comfortable space to not worry about the danger of men around me and be able to relax more than I could do in a mixed swimming space,”

The issue here is that this transwoman feels at risk from sharing spaces with men. This may be a rational response, maybe transwomen are at risk from men. Yet biological women expressing a similar fear and who are unhappy about allowing transwomen in female only spaces are accused of bigotry and transphobia. Perhaps it is because all social conventions have been set aside and all barriers have now been removed.

Women have questions and concerns about the speed of change and how it affects their safety. Shutting down women does not make the problem go away.

So you know better than the judge and don't accept the ruling. The law is there to protect everyone, if you don't agree with it at least respect it.

It matters because in order to discuss the issues of violence we need to describe which sex commits those crimes the most. And the safeguarding needed to be put in place to safeguard women from rape and assault. We need accurate descriptors in our language. Cases such as mayas chip away at the language women and men can use. Everyone is entitled to human rights. A statement maya also made to the tribunal. I want transwomen to have the same rights as anyone else.

Assault be it sexual physical be it committed by a man or a women is an offence. The most physical violence in society is not actually comitted against women but against young men and many young men have their lives wrecked by it. It is wrong, rape is wrong any physical violence is wrong. That has nothing to do with the case in question which was about human rights. It would help if you could stick to the subject and not try to score emotional points by bringing in irrelevant facts and trying to attribute views to me which I have never expressed. It doesn't help the discussion. Perhaps you would like to explain to me your stance on human rights or don't they matter?