Unbelievable description

Hithere, another comment I hear is 'But you wouldn't see all the cows and sheep in fields if everyone was vegan!). Funnily, I could live with that!

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202001/medium-808050-clip-mulesing.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202001/medium-295792-mulesing2-400x400.jpg

gmarie, thanks:

'conviction and judgement are two completely different things'

Yes, I feel strongly that we shouldn't eat animals!

Yehbutnobut, mulesing IS removal of skin (did you not see my previous link?) I will try to put the pictures here for you.

I would rather have an animal go extinct than make them suffer for cruel entertainment.

sorry, grammar!

Hetty,

I agree.

Same argument is used by bullfighiting advocates - the bull would not exist if it was not for that "art"

Just to be clear, I despise bullfighting.
It is not an art, it is a despicable use of force used by coward men to show their masculinity and superiority over innocent animals.

I would rather an animal goes extinct than making them suffer for cruel entertainment.

M0nica, your argument is bonkers! Yes, wild animals suffer pain. I never said they didn't. What on Earth has that got to do with domestic stock? We selectively breed them to use them. Otherwise, they (and their pain) wouldn't exist! They are not 'equivalent' in any way. They are unnatural creatures, bred to maximise meat, milk or wool production.

I knew that vegans did not eat honey, but as for food that is grown and pollinated by bees. Is there any? (sorry Callistemon, I know that wasn't what you meant).

Yes, it is normal for some as is not eating any food that is grown and pollinated by bees.

It could make for a very limited diet indeed.

Added to which bees could die out.

It is actually the definition of veganism.

Now, vegetarians can eat animal products as long as the animal is not killed for that purpose and if it aligns with their morals (not passing judgment here, just stating a fact)- eggs, dairy, honey, etc.

Luckylegs

Vegans not eating or using or wearing anything from animal origin us very common- honey included.

It is not extreme

I have a friend who is a vegan but her daughter is to the extreme. She won’t even eat honey as it’s come from bees and depriving the hive for its needs which I can’t understand at all, I can’t just think of the other extreme example she quoted but it was along the same lines. Is that normal for vegans?

....and again Hetty58, you have yet to address my question about the levels of pain and untreated illness in non-domesticated ruminants like cows and sheep.

Over the life cycle of a domesticated and undomesticated cow, for example, which animal is likely to suffer the most pain and discomfort. The one in the wild left without treatment for injuries, which put it at the risk of predators and endemic conditions and untended calvings, or the one on a farm treated when it has health problems and during calving, but with a brief nasty end?

Afterthought I have just realised that I am probably not going to eat any animal products today. Lunch will be a portion of rice and veg curry, left over from a previous meal and I am using my new soup maker this evening to make a Butternut squash and chestnut soup, served with a bread roll, that will not be buttered because THE DIET started today. Both meals will be accompanied by fruit, cooked or raw.

A classic example of an omnivore diet

Alexa High welfare meat does not use more water and land then industrialised systems, You are forgetting that industrialised cattle farms feed their animals on maize and soya and a very high proportion of arable crops go towards feeding them.

High welfare cattle are grazed on pasture land not suitable for growing arable crops and fed hay if extra food is needed.

Yes, currently it is more expensive than mass produced meat, but almost every new thing in life starts as a niche market only bought by the well off. Take central heating, indoor loos, car ownership. They all started off as a specialty product but as more people bought them costs came down.

High-welfare animal rearing has much less impact on the climate as land grazed and dunged by animals absorbs more carbon from the atmosphere than growing crops. I do not see how it can require more water.

We know that modern diets need to change for the sake of the planet, and among the changes is eating less meat and farming in a way that protects our wider ecology. As the vegan and vegetarian posters show, not eating meat is not necessarily a sign of poverty, so we need as a whole reduce our meat consumption and make industrial meat production redundant.

I became vegetarian 30 years ago after reading a book that laid out a reasoned argument for vegetarianism based on concerns for animals, personal health, and sustaining the environment and planet as a whole. As Mommawolf says, it's a personal decision and one that I've never tried to foist on anyone else.

If someone asks me "why" I'm vegetarian, etc., I explain. I buy canvas shoes and purses, non-leather boots, etc. and just go by whatever the current descriptor is for them - faux leather/fur, pleather, whatever. I wish more people considered the plight of animals but that's just a wish not a critique. It's hard when you feel strongly about something not to make a case for it, but I want to point out that conviction and judgement are two completely different things.

Iifestyle choices are a personal choice which I respect but I would like to point out to the very vocal bullying vegans that it is a two way street and sometimes things are not black or white. I have been with a close friend coming out of a butchers to find ourselves in the midst of vegan action, in your face screaming abuse. My friend tried to explain that a plant based diet would be dangerous for her. Let me explain, there are those who suffer from inflammatory bowel deseases oftan resulting in radical surgery and stoma formation. IBDs are treated with low fibre diet, for stoma patients no more than 10grams A DAY no leaf veg, pips, skins, mushroom,whole grain, beans.anything that can block or irritate the bowel. A vegan diet could literally kill these people. When we finally escaped my friend was distressed and cried at their lack of understanding, so please vegans realise that there are two sides to every situation.

Hetty58

Read the links and stop kidding yourselves that you do no harm. Be honest and admit that clever marketing has led you to believe the lies

Do not tell me I am kidding myself. It is you that is deluded....Humans are omnivores....some humans need to eat meat.....we are animals Hetty......you can kid yourself about being vegan all you want but do not tell me I am taken in by marketing.......so not true.
What are the lies you refer to?
Actually I don't care so don't bother but just do not tell me I am stupid and kidding myself......how rude, Vegans are often rude must be the diet!

if you think all the food you buy and eat is produced without any harm to anything living creature then it is you kidding yourself.
How careful are you with your shopping or are you just telling people eating animals is cruel.....

You have not responded to my post pointing out that plant agriculture is also causing harm. Unless the farm is really organic You are Kidding yourself.
Where do you buy your food?

I have been vegan and veggie, now I care about the welfare of the planet......it is a huge undertaking to be responsible... I am not at all phased by people saying it is cruel to eat animals because I used to think that but I know better now. It is your choice I don't mind if you eat meat or not but where does your food come from?
Have you checked how your clothes are made?
Do you go on holiday do you have a car?

What will you do about all the nasty cruel animals that hunt and eat meat......It is all part of life.
I really don't mind that you do not eat meat, so why should you care if I do? I can see you do not believe any farming is good...what about going back to hunting and foraging?

Re mulesing: Scottish and Welsh hill sheep are not mulesed and never die from maggots as far as |I am aware.

The problem ,Monica, is not high welfare farms. The problem is the many people in the world can't be fed on high welfare meat or dairy as it's too expensive and uses too much water and land.

So food animals are used as machines where welfare is not a consideration.

Even if slaughter facilities were close to the place where animals are fattened this would be a big hike in welfare as it would mean no more long distance animal transports.

Do merino sheep have particularly woolly bottoms? Or very absorbent wool? This could be an effect of breeding animals for profit, of treating animals as commodities.

We are more familiar with this form of cruelty in the pedigree dog world where some breeds come with built in health problems. However it's also rife among some purpose bred farm animals such as merino sheep.

Gluren free shampoo? Is that in case you should drink it and be ill??

At one time there wasn't much in the way of GF foods in shops so perhaps people deciding theh want GF food as a lifestyle choice is a good thing because there is so much more choice now.

Perhaps the more demand, the more the price will come down.

I am with you, Hetty

Imagine, as women, got impregnated against our will.
Got pregnant, gave birth and our baby got removed.
All for our milk.
Time and time again, have 5 kids that we know will suffer our same fate or be killed.

Heartbreaking.

I have no problem with people eating anything they choose. I'm an omnivore. My teeth and digestive system as designed to be that. To be honest I like the taste of meat, fruit and vegs and wouldn't want to give any of them up.

What annoys me is when eating restrictions become fashionable. I don't mean omnivores, vegetarians, pescatarians or vegans. I mean the fashion of eating gluten or lactose free when you don't suffer from an allergy or intolerance. People seem to get drawn into these fashionable food restrictions by clever marketing so pay over the odds for foods. I know that if you're lactose intolerant it must be wonderful to have almond, soy or any of the other milks available and my DD who has coeliac appreciates the gluten free foods she can buy but these special foods cost a lot more. Food producing companies latch onto and promote these new fashions because it makes them more profits. I know this has been going on for decades but now it's just got silly. My shampoo advertises itself as gluten free. Well of course it's gluten free. It always has been but now it's seen as a way of promoting it.

All diets should be balanced and I know that vegans and vegetarians think particularly hard about this when they plan their menus but people on fashionable diets often restrict far too much and, once they've fallen for one fashion often include another. My DIL decided she had gluten issues without any medical tests and has now decided that she's also lactose intolerant. She's not a daft lass usually but she seems to have fallen hook, line and sinker for the gluten/lactose free fad.

I have never really understood why any pain at all suffered by domesticated animals is totally unacceptable, while suffering in the same animal, where it runs undomesticated is seen as acceptable and all part of the natural cycle of wild-life.

I think animals should be treated as well as possible and I am glad to see any procedure that causes pain and distress removed, but I still think a domesticated animal that spends its life on a high welfare farm will suffer much less pain and distress over its whole life compared with its undomesticated equivalent.

I quote from *yehbutnobut^ 's last post.

mulesing remains the most effective practical way to eliminate the risk of 'flystrike' in sheep" and that "without mulesing, up to 3,000,000 sheep a year could die a slow and agonising death from flystrike

I think Hetty is talking about Mulesing. This is the removal of strips of wool-bearing skin from around the breech (buttocks) of a sheep to prevent the parasitic infection flystrike

The wool around the buttocks can retain feces and urine, which attracts flies. The scar tissue that grows over the wound does not grow wool, so is less likely to attract the flies that cause flystrike. Mulesing is a common practice in Australia for this purpose, particularly on highly wrinkled Merino sheep.

Mulesing is considered by some to be a skilled surgical task. It can only reduce fly strike on the area cut out and has no effect on flystrike on any other part of the animal's body.

Mulesing is a controversial practice. The National Farmers Federation of Australia says that "mulesing remains the most effective practical way to eliminate the risk of 'flystrike' in sheep" and that "without mulesing up to 3,000,000 sheep a year could die a slow and agonising death from flystrike".[3] The Australian Veterinary Association (AVA) "recognises the welfare implications of mulesing of sheep. However, in the absence of more humane alternatives for preventing breech strike, the AVA accepts that the practice of mulesing should continue as a sheep husbandry procedure". The AVA also supports the use of analgesics and the accreditation of mulesing practitioners.

Source Wikipedia

However this does not happen in the UK

Perhaps farmers could be persuaded to clean the animals' bottoms with Andrex moist toilet wipes.
Other makes available. All bad environmentally.