Robbie Williams and surrogacy

I believe Inuits traditionally left girl babies out on the ice to die if they felt the community could not support them. It was a way of protecting the whole community and limiting the birth rate. Was it "natural" who knows?

The "happy hooker"
Yup. Men love that idea.
Sex workers can get a form of stockholm syndrome but if they do retire the damage stays with them

Oh Annie, go and research them. There is correlation between

kids who survive abuse and drift into prostitution. Is that so hard to comprehend?

Surrogacy benefits women....what sort of nonsense is that?

Some woman carries a baby for 9 months, gives birth and hands the baby over. On a personal level I recall being alone with a screaming tiny one and cabbage leaves down my bra trying to alleviate breast pain. It flies in the face of nature and ( for believers) what God intended.

What statistics?

The statistics relating to child sex abuse survivors and prostitution are something else to consider when we are discussing choice.

It would have broken my heart if my dd had ‘chosen’ to be a sex worker. All women are worth more than that.

Well said suzie, something to think about without silly name calling and so on.

I heard Tom Daleys partner on the radio, and I didn't care for what I heard.

And then theres Michael Jackson and his children

I have watched a very british brothel presumable from the same producer and saw the supposedly self employed making choices women discuss having to have sex with customers that really made them uncomfortable, and how frequent that was.

Also, all those women werent employed but having to sit there for hours on a rota waiting for a client. No employee rights but couldnt just sod off if business was dead

If you haven't watched the programme "A Very Yorkshire Brothel" I would advise you to watch it. It actually allows some of the sex workers to speak and the atmosphere in the brothel is totally unlike anything you would expect. I had always imagined sex workers as being damaged and exploited, the women on this programme changed my mind. Of course there are horrific situations, women forced into it and severely at risk but if they choose to be sex workers and are given proper protection some of them seem to be very together and happy. When women have limited choices I don't see why anyone should make those choices even more narrow.

Surrogacy benfits women

Much of the discussion around surrogacy ethics and its effect on infant attatchment is shut down completely when the recieving patents are two men.
E.g. Tom Daly. Anyone who even mentioned the mother in that instance on SM were attacked as homophobes.

The fact that ethics is even discussed in this case is because one of the recipients is a woman.

There is almost always a man involved. Gay men. Hetro couples. Its very rare for lesbian couples to considee surrogacy....

X posts with Grey same sentiment I think? Yes trisher your posts are a welcome challenge

Surrogacy benfits women

I think this thread has evolved in a really interesting way - perfect given the lashing storm outside my window. I hope others are enjoying the varied discussion as well

Has anyone mentioned the recent case of the surrogate who died in the process leaving behind her own children whilst carrying for a richer family?

trisher, you have made my grey matter move around a little and for that I think you.

It is illegal to pay a surrogate, reasonable expenses are allowed.

Expenses include money for recovery. To be spent on therapy or a holiday for the existing children to re-bond with their mother That counts as "expenses".
Its not a lot on paper but its a lot of youre struggling. If youre on a very low income it offers a breather for a few months

And payments are bigger abroad too

Nobody disaproves of sex workers but of the situation that puts them there. It's amazing how all these choosy choices benefit predominantly men.
Surrogacy is illegal in many countries, I wish in this instance we followed the lead of some European countries.
Choice is an interesting concept, all sorts of things impact the choices that you can make, we can pretend that's not the case if we want but I am not sure its helpful.

Yet Trisher dig deeper and most women who "chose" sex work have a long history of trauma.

conceed

Would people feel the same about surrogacy if it wasn’t a super rich pop star, but an ordinary family?

If it was a super rich popstar being a surrogate for an ordinary family that wouldnt be quite as bad. Less imbalance of power. So I might coneed that they truely "chose" to do it.

suziewoozie there was a programme about a Yorkshire brothel on the TV recently. The women working there were there because they chose to be. Now you can argue that it is a capitalist society that makes sex a commodity to be sold or that patriachy is responsible for brothels. They would disagree with you. They would argue that you are projecting your morality onto them and want them to do something like scrubbing floors or cleaning toilets because you think that's less exploitative, but it's not what they choose to do. Yes their choices are limited but restricting them more doesn't help.

I don’t morally disapprove of the women but of societal norms and structures that enable and facilitate the exploitation of women and deny them real choices.

notanan2 no they don't, any more than they clean their own toilets or build their own houses.