Robbie Williams and surrogacy

It’s a fundamental fallacy generated by the patriarchy that ‘it’s a woman’s body so it’s up to her what she chooses to do with it’. Funny how often that ‘choice’ meets the needs of men and/or the powerful in any society. When women really really have real choices, they don’t sell their wombs or their bodies for sex.

suziewoozie any pressure or forcible exploitation is wrong but there are women who choose to be sex workers and women who choose to be surrogates. You may choose to morally disapprove of them, you may think they are emotionally damaging them selves but you have no right to stop them doing it. And yes there is a trade in organs, but it is illegal just as slavery and sex trafficking is. (although some rich people are certainly involved in it). Surrogacy isn't. You may think the women are being exploited but if they do it of their own free will for financial gain it is their decision.

If non familial surrogacy was such a "choice" then rich women would be lining up to do it too.
But they dont do they?

Greymar many women would disagree with you. The point is it is their body and how they choose to use it or earn their money is entirely up to them. And the present day situation for mothers and babies hasn't always applied. In the middle ages it was common for babies of aristocracy to have their own household from a very early age. In Denmark the royal family handed the heir to the throne to his oldest relative when he was born as it was felt they were best able to fight off death. Babies have often been handed to a family member by mothers unable to care for them for some reason. Only the financial aspect is new.

trisher I’m a bit ? at the argument you put forward. There are many ways poor women are exploited, including being sex workers, none of them excuse any of the others iyswim. Poor people in some countries sell a kidney and that might be better than begging on the street but it doesn’t make it right to have a market in human organs.

Trisher, the examples you give are not the same as surrogacy. We (as a species) have evolved over millenia to be mammals who nurture their young. The surrogates have carried new life, every atom is geared up to nurture. Then baby disappears.

Not for me Bibbity, you are generalising again or speaking from personal experience.

Bibbity I am sorry to hear you suffered trauma by being adopted, I am assuming you are speaking from personal experience. I cannot say I suffered, my adoptive father was a wonderful man.
Can you show me a link to this survey please?

Can someone who thinks surrogacy is exploiting poor women explain why it is any more or less exploitative than having to acrub floors or clean toilets? And in the USA it is much more lucrative.

Of course adoption is traumatic. It’s a loss for a small child.
It’s frequently acknowledged and discussed on the adoption board of Mumsnet. Burying your head in the sand doesn’t change that.

But it’s a necessity. Because a child can’t stay in an unsuitable home and it’s cruel to stay in the foster system.

With regard to adoption, our son’s child, adopted at two years old, has been successful, so far anyway, and always I hope. He has a dislike of change, but otherwise is well settled. We talk to him about when he was a baby, and why he was adopted, but only here and there, as and when it arises. He’s a lovely child, and very much ‘ours.’ But we acknowledge his beginnings.

Thank you lavenderzen, that’s such a kind comment.
BlueBelle and Suziewoozie raise good points in my opinion. Thankfully infertility issues are regulated by law in the UK. Women in their 60s aren’t treated with IVF. Children aren’t sold to be adopted. Surrogacy is very regulated. People cannot buy babies. I find myself unable to condemn surrogacy outright because of the infertility issues, but I do wonder if poor women are being, or could be exploited, as Suzie says. But then again, the clinic in London made my daughter and her husband into a family, but the clinic is extremely successful and has made the doctor who founded it very rich. Then again, he is passionate about helping infertile couples. There are lots of issues, I think we’ve probably got it about right in the UK.

If RW and his wife had quietly and respectfully fostered or adopted I suppose I would have some misgivings. Just as we don't know the RF, I don't know RW or his wife. I think years ago he was talented and creative. Any time I have seen minutes of him lately , he seems lewd and vulgar. How any woman can think it's OK to have him describe anal sex with her , on a national chat show is beyond me.

There is very litte connection between a family who have 2 children and greedily pay for 2 more and people's personal experiences of adoption, IVF and miscarriage.

RW is like so many, I see/I want/I get.

lavender zen , thanks for your post about your own adoption experience. To make a statement such as "all adoption is damaging' is to dismiss the many successful and happy outcomes.
Of course, wouldn't life be wonderful if all children were born to parents who could at least give them 'good enough' parenting but that's far from true.

Anniebach
Sorry it didnt work out the way your daughter wanted it to. I got you mixed up with maddyones post.
I must read posts more carefully

Some people think RW is charismatic but that's another thread.

I'm with you Bluebell and co
RW is a complete axxx

I should have put something up about the struggles some have had with miscarriage, ivf etc., I just saw the comment from Bibbity about adoption and felt I had to say something.

For those who have experienced the struggle of miscarriage, ivf etc, with their daughters, Annie Maddyone it is heartbreaking to read .

My thoughts always turn to the 'unwanted' in our society when hearing the word surrogate. But that is me and my choice were I unable to conceive.

Agree BlueBell

May7 I so agree with you on IVF, sadly it didn’t work for my
daughter who is relieved she is heading into the menopause !

Bluebelle have you read my link ? Also there is a lot wrong with some IVF and adoption practices. There’s no way there can be a blanket unfettered acceptance of any of these practices as they are all open to exploration and to women and babies being treated wrongly in various ways. For example, in Italy women in their 50s/60s through IVF giving birth to multiple babies. No problems? The trade in poor women used to provide babies for adoption - no problems? It can’t just be a market place in women and babies. In the UK we can be justly proud of our regulation of IVF and other fertility issues but that doesn’t mean whatever anybody else does is OK

Annie, RW they already had children which isn't the same as people who have none but want a child to complete their family. I make no apologies for using the word entitlement and agree totally with Greymar about the rich and their sense of entitlement.

Yes maddy I would still condemn it because it’s using another woman’s body.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with surrogacy, adoption, or ivf what is wrong is a rich couple who already have a natural family wanting more when God or nature or whatever you believe in is saying no it’s not happening so then because they have this sense of greed or entitlement they expect someone else to do it for them not once but twice
If they had adopted two more children I would have had a lot more respect for them
Although he’s still an absolute axxx

Anniebach
Sorry Annie I was really only commenting on surrogacy. I am a firm believer in IVF. I was a student nurse when Louise Brown was born and I remember the midwives shaking their heads and saying "it's just the tip of the iceberg"
I thought and still do think it's a wonderful practise but also appreciate the pain and heartache that comes with it
GLAD it worked out well for your daughter and family.. please dont think I was criticising IVF. Its surrogacy that I think is morally wrong.
Take a look at Suziewoozies link it is food for thought

Annie, my daughter rejected both surrogacy and adoption as a solution. I understand why your daughter and mine felt that way.
We love our son’s adopted child just as much as our daughter’s IVF children.