Are we all white racists?

Corryanna, your comment is very positive although as the others have said, you don't seem to have any recollection of the Civil Rights Movement. I went to school in the 1970s and 80s, so the CRM was before my time. But I'm VERY aware of it. It seems strange that you have no awareness of it.

You mention black singers and sports people as having success. It is a very recognised fact however, that people of African American/Afro Caribbean ethnicity have historically ONLY been allowed to rise through those peripheral channels. I say peripheral, because although they are very visible publicly, they hold no real power as positions in politics or business would. Therefore, it was safe for the dominant white patriarchal system to allow some 'token' people of colour into the arts, while continuing to conspire to keep them out of anything with any real power to change the political and social systems. Hence the murder of Dr. Martin Luther King. He DID have some power, therefore was dangerous and was assassinated.

It isn't enough to say that we see no difference ourselves between us and people of colour. It is good that we don't but unless we stand up to racism and challenge it (which isn't nice or pretty, racists do not like being challenged) we are enabling a system of violence and bigotry to be perpetuated.

Corryanna I too am surprised you have no recollection or knowledge of what occurred in the US in the 60's in relation to civil rights and school de-segregation but, as Callistemon says, perhaps you are of a later generation.

I must have been around 10/11 years old when I saw on TV news footage of black schoolchildren trying to attend previously all-white schools in the US. I still remember my horror at seeing the way these children were treated. There are a lot of photos and, I believe, film footage set around that time on the internet. It is truly disgusting to see hundreds of adult men and women - bullies and cowards - their faces contorted with hatred, screaming out their vile threats to these young people.

There is a documentary film called "I Am Not Your Negro" which tells the story of America from a black perspective, based on the words and speeches of the writer James Baldwin, with footage of that period up to the present day. If you live in the UK, it is available on BBC IPlayer.

Corryanna perhaps you were a baby in the 1950s and 60s but it was a period of race riots in America and the American Civil Rights movement; I am surprised that you had not heard of Rosa Parks, or possibly even Martin Luther King?

You say that music is your career path - this was a time when Nat King Cole was revered as a singer worldwide but subjected to months of abusive racial hatred by his neighbours in Hollywood.

It's not difficult david is it, maternity care has many issues, for black women those issues appear to be magnified.

davidhs Not one person claiming that racism is either non-existent or greatly exaggerated has responded to my posts which describe various pieces of research carried out which evidence systemic discrimination against non-white applicants in the employment and housing sector.

Instead, posters like you to continue to claim that those who complain of racism - or, according to you, of facing discrimination on any grounds, including gender, disability, sexual orientation, class, age, etc, etc, are dishonestly making these claims in order to gain advantage for themselves.

As to white men being the "only group that cannot be disadvantaged, ever", well that is obviously quite a ridiculous statement. I don't think anyone has suggested that white men are never disadvantaged as compared to other men or women. Obviously, a white man can have a disadvantaged family background - his parents may be poor, ill-educated, badly housed, etc, etc, and, relative to white men and women born into significantly advantaged families, he is likely to continue to be less successful in terms of education, employment and pay.

However, if you look at men and women who have similar backgrounds and qualifications, it is just a fact that men hold a significantly disproportionate share of all the senior positions in business and in public life. Taking your claims to their logical conclusion, if people belonging to these groups (and women are not a "minority" group by the way) do not achieve to the same degree as men it is because they are, by nature, inferior to white able-bodied males. I don't believe that is true and I don't think there is any hard evidence to support that contention.

As for men "putting up and shutting up", that is laughable. Now we have male menopause and male post-natal depression and men complain about the focus being on women domestic abuse victims, citing that males too can be victims (yes, men can face domestic abuse but I don't think 2 men a week are killed by their female partners).

I must be stupid. I cannot (and never have been able to) understand what difference a person's skin colour should make to anything. I know that sounds utterly naive - please don't shoot me down for making this very serious issue seem petty, as I know it isn't at all.
I confess to not having carefully read all 7 pages of messages on this board but a non-racist feeling and sympathy for the way things are now seems quite evident.
My first 4 words are more true tonight than they were a week ago. Last night we watched a Netflix film "The Green Book". It's about an ordinary guy from the Bronx, who becomes the driver/PA for a classical pianist as he tours the southern US. It has a warm, feelgood factor, well worth the 2 hours taken to watch. Anyway, after the first racist incident of the tour, I asked DH if it was set in the 30s and he said no, the 60s. I was stunned as we both went to school in the 60s and I could not believe that the world was so rotten during my childhood - it disgusts me. I'm not a "Goody 2 shoes" and not daft or stupid either, but what have these human beings done to deserve being treated so badly?
Music has been my career path and some of these black singers have glorious voices which come naturally to them - that beautiful timbre and deep feeling cannot be taught.
(If you don't believe me, listen to a recording of Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess" with a mainly black cast, 2 songs will be enough if need be). Without Scott Joplin we wouldn't have had Ragtime music.
Look how talented black athletes are? We readily applaud them, especially if there's an Olympic medal to add to our tally. I could rant on+on+on but basically, whatever our colour, we deserve respect and nobody is changing my mind on that.

Another biscuit for you Davidhs, claiming that "white men are the only group that cannot be disadvantaged ever, they just put up with it and shut up". If only......

As for your wife's dissatisfaction with her role in the hospital "If she had been black she would certainly have played the race card". What on earth do you mean? This victim stance doesn't sit easily in the context of any discussion about oppression or inequality. However tough it's been for many of us and I include myself as a woman for many reasons, it's not been as difficult as it would have been if I'd been a black woman coping with all the stuff life threw at me. If you David had been a black man, I suspect you'd be complaining in a different way.

Iam64
Funny I didn’t mention White Men, they are indeed the only group that cannot be disadvantaged ever, they have to just put up with it and shut up.

That no longer applies to me because I now qualify as “Old” and I like it much better, so many concessions are made.

Hospitals I do know about, my dear wife spent a lot of time there over the years, she had a lot to be dissatisfied about, if she had been black she would certainly have played the race card

ExD ; You will find the anger that is being expressed over George Floyds death is because he died in horrific circumstances held down by police enforcer officers with one of them pressing his knee into his neck for 9 minutes which resulted in his death. I had T.V. on at home that day and watched the story unfold and was appalled that something like that could even be allowed to happen to a human being.
I am taking an interest with BLM movement although being a person that has campaigned for black equality and the equal rights for all with my interest going back to when Martin Luther King began his peace movement many years ago when I was a young girl but open minded enough to see the inequality in society right back then. I ask myself how far have we come from that time or even have things just got worse.
I find in U.K much has been achieved and black and ethnic minorities have certainly been receiving better treatment than several years ago. It seems to me that this movement is going to stir up some biases so I hope nothing takes the progress too far back.
In regard of questions asked about black and ethnic people receiving less than decent treatment in N.H.S. hospitals I would say that many N.H.S staff would offer the same treatment to all. I do not know everyone' s experiences and maybe some of them felt they did not get good treatment.
I was working in healthcare and had to assist the doctor carrying out examinations for womens (and mens) sexual health care. We had patients of every nationality colour and race. All were treated the same. One morning a young woman of 19 came in. I could see she was of possible Somalian culture. No problem just let her get ready for her examination, the doctor came in and began the procedure, she was seemingly slow and I tapped her on the shoulder quietly asking is something wrong. The doctor was losing her composure and it suddenly came into my head that this beautiful young woman must have had her F.G.M operation
as sometimes they can do much damage. The young girl seemed to sense something was wrong and asked what is the matter. I quickly answered everything is okay but the doctor is missing some instruments and is just going to get them.
I followed the doctor outside of the room and asked her what is so awful she told me that the F.G.M.was terrible. I told her to get back into that room and do her job and take care of that young woman, which she managed to compose herself and did. Examination and tests over the young woman left unknowing of the effect she had on the doctor.
The doctor was fairly new and had not seen too much of that before and she broke down in tears whereby I had to get her some strong tea and wait for her to feel better.
I would say that in my opinion many medical staff are caring and want the best for all their patients although some others may have different experiences.

Davidhs
"All so called disadvantaged minorities say they are being treated unequally, so you have to be sceptical about their claims. Poor, Gay, Female, Black,Old, Young, Disabled will all say they are being discriminated against if they don't like their treatment. I know there are plenty of white women who complain that they maternity treatment is poor -but they can't play the discrimination caravan they!"

This post really needs the Gransnet Sunday award for ignorance and prejudice. Interesting that none of the 'minority' groups you mention are heterosexual white men isn't it.

Wasnt this man who died a rapist and beat women up? While i dont agree with a cop kneeling on this mans neck and suffocating him.i am white and english.i dont agree with thr protests destroying peoples stores and ruining their lives .its not just black lives matter.its all lives matter.make every day count.life is precious..i will not kneel for anyone but jesus.even then not sure my knees would allow this

All so called disadvantaged minorities say they are being treated unequally, so you have to be sceptical about their claims. Poor, Gay, Female, Black, Old, Young, Disabled will all say they are being discriminated against if they don’t like their treatment.

I do know there are plenty of white women who complain that their maternity treatment is poor - but they can’t play the discrimination card can they!.

re differing attitudes to childbirth - my youngest was born in Alexandra hospital in Singapore.
During labour I shared a room with 2 Ghurka ladies. They refused to take off their traditional clothes to change into hospital robes, and never made a squeak during labour whereas I was moaning and groaning as usual.
Different attitudes to breast feeding too, it must be cultural.

Jane 10 You have wondered on a couple of occasions why black people are more negatively stereotyped than Asian or Chinese people.

I think the experience of black people is very different from that of other ethnic groups. They have a history of over two hundred years of oppression - the colonisation of African countries, their removal and enslavement in the US and various Caribbean islands. It is almost impossible for a black person to trace back their ancestry because even their names were taken from them. On top of that, an alien culture - eg language and religion - was imposed on them. Black people were once commonly viewed as a different, inferior, species (and there are still people who hold that odious view now). Similar treatment has been dished out to indigenous Australians and North Americans, with similar consequences - a significant degree of addiction issues and higher crime and anti social behaviour rates.

I'm not sure I would agree with you that Asian people aren't so affected by this negative stereotyping. Certainly, there have been many reports of Muslims being harassed and physically attacked in recent years.

Chinese people had a more limited experience of colonisation, they were not shipped off to other countries and given new names. But, as is seen with Hong Kong now, when a whole group of people believes it is being treated unjustly (which I think they are) they can be as violent and anti-social as anyone else.

Davidhs Does your OH discount the comments of many black women with regard to their experience of pregnancy and labour? I find it surprising that a professional employee's response to hearing the feelings of a number of patients is not to reflect upon that information but to be "furious".

Davidhs

“Again, are black pregnant women neglected by the NHS ?“

My OH has just retired after 30+ years as a midwife and was furious to hear that, everyone is treated exactly the same. Wether they take the advice given is another matter and if they don’t turn up for Ante Natal, not a lot you can do
They had several Afro-Carribean and Asian midwives in the Maternity Unit everyone was treated the same

Many many studies show this is false. Your own bias is showing “if they choose to show up”

No one is saying your wife didn’t treat people equally, but the medical system does not.

At least we're thinking and talking about the issue of racism and how it must feel to people. If nothing else the George Floyd scandal (and it was scandalous police behaviour) has opened up channels of communication and forced them to be used.

Madgran, Eleothan and others excellent well informed posts.

A few pretty appalling racist posts too.

We must educate in a better way and where racism is very occasionally mistakenly perceived we shouldn't be offended or annoyed we must look at ourselves and ask why.

I don't feel that gransnetters who are black need to explain their anger, it is the same as the anger we all feel at the injustice.

I would though appreciate gransnetters who are willing to identify themselves as BAME on threads like these to help the rest of us to understand the depth of your feelings.

I think this is what ExD is asking for.

i think a pp has confused the incident of the man in wendys carpark.
so many killings of black men by usa police, easy to get mixed up.

This a description of exactly what happened in the time before and after George Floyd died

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52861726

He was NOT "being arrested for attempting to drive a car when obviously high on drugs."

And even if he was, I have to ask again, is that method of restraint as described above, an acceptable method of police restraint!

No it isn't!!

Therein lies the problem. The same treatment isn’t necessarily appropriate for all pregnant women. Black women in particular are more prone to certain complications of pregnancy and require different treatment. They also endure the ‘strong black woman’ narrative, even from those of the same background, because that’s what they’ve learnt to believe. There is also a language barrier for some women.

As for the attitude to George Floyd that because he was big and strong he deserved what he got - contemptible.

Charity boss fired after criticising Black Lives Matter UK

thecritic.co.uk/charity-boss-fired-after-criticising-black-lives-matter/

This is not helping the cause of eliminating racism at all, this man was awarded an MBE for his work keeping black and asian teenagers out of gangs, spending his own money to try and keep them on the right path. Now a campaign against him means he has lost his job.

i guess i shouldn't be surprised by some of the attitudes on here, but i still am.

Sticking my neck out here but George Floyd was hardly a good living role model for ANYONE. If he hadn't been a career criminal, would he still be alive?

The point is , is kneeling on someones neck for 9 minutes an ok method of police restraint!!!! No it isn't!

I sincerely hope we are not, as a nation, racist. I am becoming tired, though of the constant press about it now. I have a good friend who is not white - I couldn't care less - she and i have a lot in common. I do notice, though, that she is very quick to say a certain thing happened because she is not white. It is easy to take offence where none is intended if people concentrate too much on things being supposedly against them.