Are we all white racists?

Rosecarmel,

1) I've lived in the US. There are an AWFUL lot of white people there who think they're not racist but are as redneck nasty as they come.

2) The racists on here are old. NOT excusing them. They sicken me. But they're the past. The younger racists in the UK are the ones I really worry about.

Oh, you mean like Americans being like, oh, hell yes, it's a problem in the US, opposed to you guys being like, tut tut not us, we treat everyone as equals ..

rosecarmel

Very difficult to admit racism is a problem in your country I'm sure, but you've a lengthy history of not admitting many things about your country 's history -

In the light of what has been happening in the US, ironic indeed.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/uk-ministers-order-urgent-vitamin-d-coronavirus-review?CMP=share_btn_fb

The Guardian printed this article the other day. It’s a hypothesis which may have some credibility as you can’t always attribute increased BAME mortality to socioeconomic factors - eg in the cases of the senior doctors/consultants who sadly lost their lives to the virus.
Not saying it’s the only or even the main factor, but a physiological connection is not impossible

Anniebach You say "neither are they to be questioned on poor health of black women".

So, there appears to be a problem with uptake of treatment and health outcomes for black people, and some concerns as to whether certain assumptions are made about black people's experience within the health setting. For instance, there have been reports that their response to pain is not taken as seriously as that of white people, particularly in relation to the issue of pain in labour.

My husband was involved in a car accident many years ago and broke both his legs badly. When I visited him in hospital, he was sweating profusely, very pale and clammy, and complaining bitterly of severe pain. We both understood that the aftermath of his injuries and surgery would result in pain but his suffering seemed unusually severe to me. I approached several doctors who, without examining him, tried to dismiss my anxieties by saying, quite brusquely, that he had a "low pain threshold". Finally, I managed to get an American female doctor to take notice and she found that the metal clamp at his foot had moved and was pulling into, and partly embedded in, the flesh, causing significant and unnecessary pain. She rectified the situation and apologised profusely. Now, the original lack of action may be put down to a unwillingness to listen to what a patient is saying (which, whatever the colour of the patient, is unacceptable anyway) but if there is a commonly held notion that certain races have a different pain threshold and so no further investigation is needed if they ask for more help or investigation with severe pain, it should be challenged.

There may be a number of reasons for differential take up of treatment and outcomes that are not linked to stereotyping or covert racism within the health setting. There may be other, external, causes unrelated to the hospital or surgery, but if there are concerns, surely they should be investigated?

kircubbin I agree that if you have no experience whatsoever of seeing people who look, sound, dress and speak differently from anyone you have ever known you may feel curious and a little wary. I'm not sure I would call that racism - but I would call it rudeness to stare, point or make loud comments. However, if you then choose to behave badly towards those people - threaten, insult or make fun of them or deny them somewhere to live, equal access to and progression in the employment market, equal treatment under the law, etc, etc, then that is racism. And so is it racism if you refuse to accept that such issues need looking at and rectifying if they are found to exist.

My word, harsh words from an American!
The irony

Very difficult to admit racism is a problem in your country I'm sure, but you've a lengthy history of not admitting many things about your country 's history -

paddyanne

Is that racism agianst NHS staff from the EU or BAME origins? I did hear that NHS Staff in England had been having a tough time since Brexit.Hell mend the eegits when there's no staff to treat them as all those nasty " FURRINERS" have "gone back to where they came from"

Unfortunately, Scotland suffers from a lot of racism too.

Presumably it seems more prevalent in England because England has 10 times the population of Scotland.

As was reported not long ago, a patient attending a surgery in Glasgow did not want to see 'an Asian doctor'. When told the GP was Scottish, the patient said she 'doesn't 'look Scottish to me'.
What does a Scottish person look like?

I think its natural to notice people who are different and perhaps be wary until you get to know them. It happens everywhere. My sons inlaws from china were horrified to arrive in Stockwell and see black dreadlocked men sitting on the footpath outside the station smoking.They had never seen black people before yet they themselves were stared at in my small village.I don't think that is racism.

Racism must be involved or race ? Big difference trisher ,

maddyone

Ah, just seen summerlove’s link. So it seems to be mainly thrombosis. And high levels of suicide after the birth. Still don’t know why? Why more thrombosis? Why higher levels of suicide? Those are reasons but not why these happen. Must be more to it I feel.

That made me think.
Statistics show that BAME people are more likely to die from this virus than other groups even taking into effect other factors. A side effect of this virus is, apparently, embolism. I wonder if there is any connection?

I wondered previously what blood groups were most likely to be worst affected by COVID19 as certain blood groups are more prevalent in some groups of people than others.

Are certain blood groups more prone to thrombosis/embolisms than others?

Regarding the terrible pregnancy/CB mortality rates amongst BAME women, I have a very experienced BAME friend who works in that field. She has some interesting thoughts on why the figures are so high.

It’s not necessarily overt racism that causes this. Some is unfamiliarity amongst hospital staff with the particular needs of BAME women, as we’ve seen with BAME patients who have the Coronavirus. There are also issues of BAME women being more likely to experience deprivation, which in general leads to worse outcomes.

There are language issues, BAME women less likely to speak English and therefore miscommunication happening.

For black women in particular, the narrative of the ‘strong black woman’ also means that their concerns are taken less seriously, even by other black women and black medical personnel, because it’s all part of their ‘strength’ that they can cope with whatever the problem is. I suppose it’s a bit like the way we used to think that big boys don’t cry.

There’s much more to it, it’s very complex, but even these few examples gave me pause for thought at how it can be solved.

So no one is to question the high mortality rate in childbirth for BAME women? Isn't that racist?
I can't see anywhere on this thread any blaming of NHS staff by the way, just an assertion that racism must be involved.

Is that racism agianst NHS staff from the EU or BAME origins? I did hear that NHS Staff in England had been having a tough time since Brexit.Hell mend the eegits when there's no staff to treat them as all those nasty " FURRINERS" have "gone back to where they came from"

Agree maddy ,they do face abuse but

neither are they there to be questioned on
poor health care of black women as said by a poster

Yes Eloethan
Racism against NHS staff has been increasing, I haven’t any stats but have seen this reported more than once. It’s absolutely outrageous that anyone should behave in a racist way towards NHS staff (well towards anyone actually, but my post is about NHS staff.) NHS staff are trying to help the sick and the injured, they are not there to be abused.

What do you think and say that you feel would make people say you are "racist" *timetogo"?

I would suggest that the widely used expression "playing the race card" in itself has racist overtones because it seeks to question and undermine the very real systemic and individual discrimination that BAME people have experienced - evidence of which comes from reputable research.

The "Practice Business" website published an article based on some research conducted by the ITV for a news item about an increase in racist attacks on NHS personnel. Here are some extracts:

"Alarming new research shows that racism against NHS staff is increasing, with 70% of surveyed Trusts reporting a rise in such abuse

"We found the number of recorded racist attacks against NHS staff increased from 589 in 2013 to 1448 last year – that’s an increase of 145%. ........

"One nurse, from the Philippines, who works in Devon, told me she is routinely asked to go home or told by the patient to go away and find an English nurse to treat them. It’s so regular she says she doesn’t notice it any more, let alone report it to the hospital................

"The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) says the findings are shocking, but not surprising. Rebecca Hilsenrath, the group’s CEO, admits some of the figures could be because of better recording of incidents. Mrs Hilsenrath says much of it is down to lack of representation of black and minority ethnic (BAME) people in all industries; she says, until there is equal representation and equal pay, racist comments will continue to pervade our society."

Sky News, May this year

"Hate crimes against Chinese people in the UK have soared during the coronavirus outbreak, new police figures have revealed.

"At least 267 offences were recorded in the first three months of 2020 during the COVID-19 crisis ..........

"Victims described being punched, spat at and coughed on in the street as well as being verbally abused about coronavirus after the first case was reported in China."

Doesn't sound very tolerant to me.

Riverwalk
I am sure there are many who don't understand and horrified that treatment of a man, held by police who suspected a misdemeanour concerning money was inhuman and inexcusable.
What ever your race or colour,your choice of religion, in the 'eyes of god 'ALL are equal' which sadly so many chose to ignore.

I am not racist and don`t know anyone who is.
We are very tolerant in this country but seem to be called racist when we say what we think/feel,we have an opinion on all sorts of people regardless of colour.
I`m sick of the race card being thrown at people who say nothing most of the time yet get the finger pointed at us.

To consider racism is to consider white doctors and nurses do not give the same care to black women as they do to white
women ?

At present no one is certain about the reasons- from the report summerlove gave the link for Given that the death rates for BAME women are shockingly high in comparison to white women, this is an issue that needs urgent attention. It is impossible to see those statistics and to not consider racism - in some form and somewhere, whether direct, structural or institutional - as playing a role in the poorer outcomes for BAME women. To think that this is all down to chance is unhelpful. And to think that this is all down to some fault of the women themselves is ignorant.

Just realised rosecarmel lives in America. The American system may well treat black women differently, I don’t know, but the NHS does not .

Perhaps you could give us some evidence, rather than your opinion.

There will be other reasons, social, health, but no, I don’t believe that staff treat black women differently.

I find that very difficult to believe, to be quite honest.