jk rowling and the 3 dementors

I am thrilled that you like getting changed with men present, delighted for you. The thing about consent is that you cant grant.it for other people. So the fact that you are happy has no bearing on the 14 year old isnt. Is she allowed to say no?

What have I attributed to you that you did not say Trisher.

Galaxy could you please stop attributing things to me I did not say. But if you want to discuss male viloence then let's do so. Male violence has it's roots in a patriarchal society that deems boys must learn to fight and aggression is a male quality. That aggression may be targetted at all sorts of people, black, the elderly, women, gays or trans. It is undubtedly wrong and it should be tackled. But it should be tackled by all those who are subjected to it. It requires changes in attitude and child raising that are deep rooted and embedded in our society and those changes are unlikely to be brought about unless patriachy as a concept is challenged.
I really find this obsession with penises very odd. I have changed clothes in many places including on beaches and in woods, there have sometimes been men changing as well, but I actually saw very little of their penises. Our local swimming baths introduced a policy of women always wearing swim suits in the shower because apparently some women didn't like seeing others strip off.
I was thinking about how we identify gender and what are the expectations of gender. The post about the woman who objected to a trans nurse stated that it was obvious they were male because they had a beard, and yet some women have facial hair and a few can grow beards. But the bearded wooman is an object of derision in our society. A woman must remove facial hair growth or she can't be a woman. (This isn't a dispute about the story by the way just a discussion of gender stereotypes.)
Feminism has moved on from the 1970s when men were the enemy (A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle) it now recognises that there are some feminist men who want the right to express their feelings and some conservative women who have hijacked feminism and are using it to create division.

You have decided that her consent and the consent of others like her is worthless.

A 14 year old girl has just had to take their local authority to court to ensure she did not have to share facilities with people with male bodies. She won thankfully. People have given away her consent. She was extraordinarily brave. I and many other women do not consent to people with a penis in our spaces. We are saying no. We do not consent.
The figures for violence are fairly conclusive Trisher as you know. 98 % of sexual violence is committed by men. If you think it is feminism not to acknowledge that fact and what it means for women I dont know what to say. Feminism is not posting a meaningless gif, feminism is a 14 year old girl fighting for her sex based rights so that other girls dont have to.

Galaxy Although most violence may be committed by men it is very wrong to assign it only to men. There are violent people of all genders and it is the violence which should be condemned whoever perpetrates it.
Consent remains consent for every single person and no oe who believes in the rights of individuals disputes that.
The whole point of gender diversity is that no one is assigned a way of behaving based on the gender they may have been born with or have acquired. If they choose to dress or behave differently that is their right.
Inclusivity, caring and supporting others are the aims of feminism. Division, inequality, suppresion and segregation are the tools of patriachy. Recognising both of those things is not something that is restricted or prescribed by gender natal or acquired.

I've only just seen this thread, so please forgive me for referring back to where the discussion started. Many of us on Gransnet have ceased to menstruate but surely remain women. On the other hand my newly 11yro DGD has just started to menstruate. Does that make her a woman? or does she still have a few years to run being a Girl? I raise this just to illustrate the minefield that is the attempt to label/classify people, based on one characteristic.

You both have a point there farnorth and galaxy,
taken to its extreme, trans genderism takes away all boundaries. Things get tricky then as to consent.

Or by using words like walk like a woman or talk like a woman.
Or by using the words people who commit violence to describe male violence.
Or by telling girls they are only allowed boundaries and consent if those boundaries are defined by men.
Or by ignoring the consent of women.
Really smashing the patriarchy there.

trisher, in what way are 'rigid gender roles and expectations' being smashed, or even challenged, by people claiming to be the opposite sex and showing that by changing how they dress etc to fit in with stereotypes?
Or by not changing much, or anything, but claiming to be the opposite sex anyway?

Please explain how doing that could be smashing the patriarchy.

For anyone interested in knowing more www.wire.org.au/smash-the-patriarchy/

This is what real feminism is about today

“I support the right of trans women to have equality, just as I support the rights of most minority groups for equality ( not sex abusers). “

But Iam what does this mean in practice? Do you support the right of a self identifying trans woman HCPC to carry out a cervical smear or the right of a woman to refuse this? You can’t have it both ways. Do you support the tight of trans women sportspeople to compete equally with women? Supporting the rights of trans women to equality simply means throwing the rights of natal women under the bus where the two sets of rights collide.

When you say we who do you mean. I am not aware of any women on the GC side who have used death threats, or threats of rape.

Yes, Iam Well said.

Feminism is about women. BLM is about black people. And so on. Each oppressed group will eventually come together to stand together for change. I stand with BLM but I'm not black so can I truly understand what it feels like to have your whole life determined by your skin colour. I can have some idea because as an older woman I've lived through periods when we didn't have equal pay for equal work, where domestic abuse was dismissed by white, male police officers. Ive been pregnant, given birth, experienced puberty, the menopause and so on. Im a white older woman.
I support the right of trans women to have equality, just as I support the rights of most minority groups for equality ( not sex abusers).
I do not want to see women like Germain Greer, JK Rowling and so many others abused, no platformed and ridiculed for expressing their beliefs.
We have to be better than this.

I think one of the most damaging aspects of the entire trans debate has been that we have not been able to speak out in a calm and sensible way. Concerns and worries have been shouted down not only from the trans activists, who by the way have been aggressive and vitriolic, but also by many politicians, social commentators and the media in general.

Women who have asked “but what about sport or prisons or refuges or the medical abuse of children have had accusations of bigot and transphobe hurled at them. Women's groups attempting to discuss the issues have been targeted and disrupted. Ordinary women have been attacked. Speakers at such groups have been cancelled because of their views. And strong women such Germaine Greer and JK Rowling have had death threats for daring to suggest that biology is a bit important

It has become a toxic debate with the media jumping on the band wagon of social justice,attempting to bring the cause of the trans activists to the fore at the expense of over half of the population, women.

The past few years have seen tremendous changes in services to accommodate the desires of the trans activists from M+S making their female changing rooms gender neutral to every official form we fill in asking not what sex we are but what gender. And this is before the gender recognition reform took place.

According to articles in the news yesterday, it may not now take place. Apparently the government are set to announce there will be no reform. People wishing to change gender will have to go through the process of seeking a medical opinion and all that entails rather than self identifying. I wonder if the abuse of women who speak out will now stop, or will it intensify when the trans activists and their supporters howl with rage.

Wheniwasyourage

Like you, merlotgran, I found myself wondering what I am now. I had been thinking that I was a woman, but obviously not. Good for JKR!

Nonsense, she didn't say you aren't a woman.You were born female I presume.Read the tweet.

I don’t and never will stand against trans rights unless they are at the expense of women’s rights and I struggle to see how they can’t be in some cases.

There is a medium ground that as I said before I think most women and most trans would happily accept but those extreme few that want to infringe on women’s rights in order for trans women to be considered as “women” are loud, influential and seem to have deep pockets. The lesbian community has been open about the impact these trans activists have on them and it’s tragic they pushed out of Organizations that typically were in support of them.
Unfortunately anyone can say until they are blue in the face that trans women with male genitalia are not a risk to women. But screaming that at an abuse victim who is made to share a refuge with a trans women will not take away their fear. Sports women who have lost scholarships to a trans woman who lives and trained as a man for 25 years but now competes in women’s sports will not inspire them to compete.
Women who’s employers no longer have to provide accurate pay information to highlight pay inequality because they have men identifying as women does not help them get a fair pay packet. If my daughter doesn’t want a a medical practitioner who looks and sounds like man will still be considered intolerant and hateful if she asks for another women practitioner.

The only people that should decide what infringes women’s rights should be women. Men have held the power for so long and know the power is passed to transgender women. Why does one have to have or had a penis to to tell me whether my rights are threatened?

We can only do this if we acknowledge that it is because of our sex that we are oppressed.

Feminism is for the liberation of women from oppression.

Sorry that should have been Galaxy

SueDonim so no one but women are oppressed by a patriarchy? Not disabled people? Not trans gender people? Not gay and lesbian people? Not black people?
Feminism if it is true feminism wants to chnge the system not just make women equivalent to men.

It’s not women who are pitting themselves against other groups, it’s the TRA’s.

No true feminism centres women. That is what it does by definition. It is not for all oppressed people it is for women.