Diplomatic Immunity

A tragic accident but one that caused the death of a young man. Accidents like that one usually have legal consequences. This one should be no exception.
I pulled out onto the wrong side of a road when driving in the USA. My husband shouted very loudly,I realised and corrected my mistake. Fortunately, we were on a quiet country road with no other traffic. Had my mistake caused an accident, even a minor one that would have been my responsibility. A momentary lapse of focus would be no excuse. Mrs S lived in the UK. I had only arrived in the US the previous day. I am not excusing my mistake, there is no excuse.

JenniferEccles

Nevertheless, this WAS an accident, a tragic accident of course but the fact is it was an accident.

Mrs. S didn’t set out to deliberately run someone over did she? It was a momentary lack of concentration, something we are all guilty of.
We might think we are concentrating hard on the road when we are driving and probably most of the time we are but occasionally our minds will wander, thinking about what we need to buy in the supermarket for instance.

It’s one of those ‘there but for the grace of God’ moments which will live with her for the rest of her life.

It doesn’t matter it was an accident - she is criminally responsible for killing a young man. Drivers are punished regularly by the CJS for accidents because they are held responsible. If she’d done it deliberately which she didn’t she would have been facing murder. In terms of the law people are punished for causing accidents whether deliberate or not. The deliberate/accidental issue is reflected in the charge and the punishment. And if we had a grace of god moment that does not mean we are not criminally responsible for our actions.
What part of that don’t you understand?
And we have no idea at all about how bad she feels do we ? Not bad enough to face justice for sure - she has agency .

Would you be content to leave it at that if it was one of your family? A grandchild perhaps?

Nevertheless, this WAS an accident, a tragic accident of course but the fact is it was an accident.

Mrs. S didn’t set out to deliberately run someone over did she? It was a momentary lack of concentration, something we are all guilty of.
We might think we are concentrating hard on the road when we are driving and probably most of the time we are but occasionally our minds will wander, thinking about what we need to buy in the supermarket for instance.

It’s one of those ‘there but for the grace of God’ moments which will live with her for the rest of her life.

Mrs Sacoolas admitted liability at the scene. The US military forces then removed her and her family from the UK almost immediately. Her children never reappeared at their school - just vanished. I do not think the US government have allowed her to make any statement, or to consider returning to the UK - I don't think she has any freedom whatsoever in this matter. I really doubt she thinks 'she has got away with it'. She will have to live with this for ever and it is not up to anyone else assume what her feelings are. She is not a free agent. The whole event is a huge tragedy.

Iam64

How can anybody judge the Dunn family for refusing to meet Mrs S at the WhiteHouse. They went there hoping the President could help in their search for justice, instead they were told Mrs S was in the building waiting to speak to them. It's a disgraceful way to behave, to set up a grieving family in this way.

There is no such thing as closure. The best the Dunn's can hope for is to somehow integrate this dreadful experience into their lives, to reach a point where it no longer dominates every waking and sleeping moment. A set up meeting in the White House was unlikely to help them in any way. Had the President's team met with them and asked whether they wanted to meet Mrs S, they'd have had time to properly consider their response.

The legal situation and the moral one are entirely different. We can't conclude that Mrs S "as a mother" will be devastated by what she did. She may be but she certainly hasn't demonstrated that by any speech or actions.

Well on GN some people feel they can easily pas judgement on the Dunn family as this thread demonstrates. As for the death of Harry Dunn being an accident, every year motorists are in court for causing death and injury as a result of accidents. She wasn’t drunk, or texting but she was responsible - she chose to drive in a foreign country and should therefore have made sure she was concentrating. The fact she didn’t mean to do it is a complete red herring and is only of relevance to the charge and punishment she would have faced.
And no, not everything has been done yet to bring her to justice - there’s still the possibility of an online trial. I believe the international arrest warrant is still in place and rightly so.

How can anybody judge the Dunn family for refusing to meet Mrs S at the WhiteHouse. They went there hoping the President could help in their search for justice, instead they were told Mrs S was in the building waiting to speak to them. It's a disgraceful way to behave, to set up a grieving family in this way.

There is no such thing as closure. The best the Dunn's can hope for is to somehow integrate this dreadful experience into their lives, to reach a point where it no longer dominates every waking and sleeping moment. A set up meeting in the White House was unlikely to help them in any way. Had the President's team met with them and asked whether they wanted to meet Mrs S, they'd have had time to properly consider their response.

The legal situation and the moral one are entirely different. We can't conclude that Mrs S "as a mother" will be devastated by what she did. She may be but she certainly hasn't demonstrated that by any speech or actions.

The only way now for the family is to accept that it was an accident, a terrible one but an accident.The car driver wasn’t drunk or chatting on a mobile phone but all it took was a moment of forgetfulness, turning out of the base onto the wrong side of the road.Nothing more can be done legally to bring the driver to court or to the UK, they have done all they could do, and the FO have done all they could do.
Sometimes, however unfair a situation is, there is nothing more to be done.

All the more reason then for the parents to have met her in the White House when they had the opportunity.

If during the meeting Mrs. S had managed to express how desperately sorry she was for the terrible accident, it may have gone some way to bringing closure to the parents.

lemongrove

Davidhs

Ann Sacoolas was ordered back to the US with her family she had no option, just as she has no option now , military families do as they are told they have no choice. She is a mother with normal emotions, not some ogre, calling her vile is just so wrong. She was negligent, killed Harry, which she will live with for the rest of her life, if she had been convicted in the U.K. the sentence probably would not have been custodial.

More likely a suspended sentence and a long driving ban plus some community penalty. What I am surprised at, she was allowed to continue driving in the US, I would have thought a long ban would have been automatic in such cases. Diplomatic immunity is a fact of life, it’s not unreasonable for home countries to impose penalties for crimes committed overseas

I agree, calling her vile etc is wrong and smacks of mob justice.As a mother she will feel awful about this accident, and will have to live with it.
She won’t face a court appearance either here or in the US, but that doesn’t mean she has got away scot free.Anyone who has unwittingly caused a fatal accident will tell you that it’s on their conscience.I hope the Dunn family will find closure somehow.

And just how will they find closure - injustice is a terrible thing to have to learn to live with.

She should still face up to what she did.
Possibly feeling guilty about it from a distance isn't enough.

I don't know how she sleeps at night.

Davidhs

Ann Sacoolas was ordered back to the US with her family she had no option, just as she has no option now , military families do as they are told they have no choice. She is a mother with normal emotions, not some ogre, calling her vile is just so wrong. She was negligent, killed Harry, which she will live with for the rest of her life, if she had been convicted in the U.K. the sentence probably would not have been custodial.

More likely a suspended sentence and a long driving ban plus some community penalty. What I am surprised at, she was allowed to continue driving in the US, I would have thought a long ban would have been automatic in such cases. Diplomatic immunity is a fact of life, it’s not unreasonable for home countries to impose penalties for crimes committed overseas

I agree, calling her vile etc is wrong and smacks of mob justice.As a mother she will feel awful about this accident, and will have to live with it.
She won’t face a court appearance either here or in the US, but that doesn’t mean she has got away scot free.Anyone who has unwittingly caused a fatal accident will tell you that it’s on their conscience.I hope the Dunn family will find closure somehow.

Davidhs

Ann Sacoolas was ordered back to the US with her family she had no option, just as she has no option now , military families do as they are told they have no choice. She is a mother with normal emotions, not some ogre, calling her vile is just so wrong. She was negligent, killed Harry, which she will live with for the rest of her life, if she had been convicted in the U.K. the sentence probably would not have been custodial.

More likely a suspended sentence and a long driving ban plus some community penalty. What I am surprised at, she was allowed to continue driving in the US, I would have thought a long ban would have been automatic in such cases. Diplomatic immunity is a fact of life, it’s not unreasonable for home countries to impose penalties for crimes committed overseas

Are they still a military family? Who knows? She can still choose to do the right thing. The military don’t own her. Is anyone arguing against DI as a concept? In fact hasn’t it been changed now so a future AS would not have DI in the same circumstances? As for her sentence - at one level it’s irrelevant but I still doubt that what she did would have even got community service.The charge would have been downgraded and a fine and ban imposed. There was also nothing stopping the Trump administration/ military from offering to try her themselves so that at least she would have faced justice. They’ve done nothing have they apart from trying to pull a cheap PR stunt. In conclusion, she’s a grown up who for her own reasons has gone along with all this . She’s not a child and she has agency.

Ann Sacoolas was ordered back to the US with her family she had no option, just as she has no option now , military families do as they are told they have no choice. She is a mother with normal emotions, not some ogre, calling her vile is just so wrong. She was negligent, killed Harry, which she will live with for the rest of her life, if she had been convicted in the U.K. the sentence probably would not have been custodial.

More likely a suspended sentence and a long driving ban plus some community penalty. What I am surprised at, she was allowed to continue driving in the US, I would have thought a long ban would have been automatic in such cases. Diplomatic immunity is a fact of life, it’s not unreasonable for home countries to impose penalties for crimes committed overseas

JenniferEccles

Mr. Dunn was reported as saying that the President treated them very well and that they didn’t feel in any way ‘ambushed’ which makes it all the more strange why they didn’t take the opportunity to meet Mrs. Sacoolas especially as she had made it clear she wanted to meet them to apologise properly face to face.

Wasn’t it an opportunity missed for the Dunns to have their say to her ? Who knows they may have been able to persuade her to return here to face up to what she had done.

Obviously most of our sympathy must go to the Dunns for their dreadful loss, but Mrs. S will have to live with what she has done for the rest of her life.

I’ve read reports saying something very different. Whatever the full story, they were not told in advance that she would be there. Just imagine the overwhelming experience of bring in the WH ( having rushed there by train after a last minute call) and then having that thrown at you. How many of us would have been prepared to meet her and have organised what we wanted to say? But anyway, what they want is justice in a court - not a photo op where she gets credit for saying she’s sorry when she chose not just to run away but stay away.

And she has to live it with it for the rest of her life ? -unlike his family and twin brother. ?.

Families like the Dunns, the Hillsborough ones, Ian Tomlinson's , Stephen Lawrence’s and multiple more shouldn’t have to fight for justice but what they have in common is they are seen as the ‘little’ people to be brushed aside and lied to by the powerful in society. How admirable to fight back.

Poor family. I can't begin to understand what they are going through to get justice for Harry. Diplomatic immunity should not be reason to avoid answering for crimes committed.

Mr. Dunn was reported as saying that the President treated them very well and that they didn’t feel in any way ‘ambushed’ which makes it all the more strange why they didn’t take the opportunity to meet Mrs. Sacoolas especially as she had made it clear she wanted to meet them to apologise properly face to face.

Wasn’t it an opportunity missed for the Dunns to have their say to her ? Who knows they may have been able to persuade her to return here to face up to what she had done.

Obviously most of our sympathy must go to the Dunns for their dreadful loss, but Mrs. S will have to live with what she has done for the rest of her life.

No .Bathsheba i`m not,but it`s the principle.

dontmindstayinghome

I read an article about Anne Sacoolas and how her life has been since she slunk back to the US after killing Harry Dunn.

She has been persecuted by 'unknown persons' since her return and has had to move house several times. She regularly has 'murderer' painted on her home and her car. She is verbally abused when she is out in public to such an extent she rarely ventures out with her family.

I have absolutely no sympathy for her whatsoever. She deserves every bit of the abuse she is enduring.

She could stop the abuse very easily by coming back and facing up to her crimes.

Vile woman.

And I wonder how true all this is don’t you? As you say she’s brought it on herself if it’s true - not because of the accident but her behaviour since.

I read an article about Anne Sacoolas and how her life has been since she slunk back to the US after killing Harry Dunn.

She has been persecuted by 'unknown persons' since her return and has had to move house several times. She regularly has 'murderer' painted on her home and her car. She is verbally abused when she is out in public to such an extent she rarely ventures out with her family.

I have absolutely no sympathy for her whatsoever. She deserves every bit of the abuse she is enduring.

She could stop the abuse very easily by coming back and facing up to her crimes.

Vile woman.

If Harry Dunn’s family hadn’t been the amazing people they are, this would never have been more than local news. Btw annie your post reminded me to go and donate some more money to their fundraising to help with the appeal.

Despite the multiple, documented abuses of the system, it is obvious that Diplomatic Immunity, as a protocol must exist. It is also a fact that there have been many accidents, some fatal, around the area where Harry Dunne was killed, chiefly caused by USA forces staff. However, Anna Sacoolas had the opportunity, as a human being, as a parent, to face up to what she did. I don't think anyone, including Harry's parents, think it was anything more than a tragic accident, but running away as she did has made it far far worse. As for Trump ambushing Harry's parents, it was at the very least, a massive mistake, and to somehow infer that Harry's parents were at fault for refusing to meet with her, is crass, to put it mildly.

Apparently, so I read on mumsnet yesterday, when on the American base they drive on the right, only driving on the left when coming out onto our roads. I think that is absolutely crazy, no wonder there are so many near misses/accidents.

Davidhs

Sacoolas was in the next room at the White House ready to privately meet the Dunn’s but they did not want that. I don’t know what they did want but it was quite clear that there was not going to be a public media circus.

They were not that she was in the next room until they arrived. Hence my accurate use of the word ambush. They were led to believe that Trump was going to discuss what if anything could be done to help the situation. What they wanted was justice not to be lied to and tricked

Nothing excuses the death of a child in this way, it's a disgrace !