Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

All violence be it threatened or actual is wrong. All hatred is wrong.
As far as I can see the only solutions being offered to any of those problems is by me. And it's good risk assessment.
There is a lot of talk about creating safe single sex spaces but no details on how they would work or how you would know who was using them.
If it is wrong and dangerous to have unisex facilities it is even more dangerous to have spaces which you assure women are safe single sex spaces but which cannot be guaranteed.

This is the collateral damage so far.
The whistleblowers.
Women who have been sexually assaulted in prisons and changing rooms.
Children having to take legal action to ensure their privacy in changing rooms
Transwomen who say they are of the male sex (mostly old school transexuals)
Detransitioners
Women who have lost their job because they say biology is real
Women who have been threatened with rape and violence for discussing this issue -JKR
All women who are unable to use mixed sex facilities due to religion or trauma from sexual assault
Many gay men and lesbians who feel utterly betrayed by the organisations they thought supported them (see any thread on this issue on stonewall twitter)
Sports women especially young women in the states where scholarships are dependent to sports results (again more court cases pending)
Yes its working really well.

What is the scientific evidence on changing sex, that I am choosing not to believe?

There are no single sex spaces you say.
Indeed, because trans people, who have accessed them for some time, have not changed sex.

As it becomes more usual for a person's self-declared sex to be accepted as fact, the risks to women in supposed single-sex spaces will increase.

Good refuges already have risk assessments in place that prevent anyone who presents a risk to other residents gaining access.
Prisons should do the same but of course the problem there is that there will be a huge number of prisoners who are too violent to live with others.
Flat earthers don't believe the scientific evidence just as you don't believe trans women are women. It's semantics
But there are no single sex spaces they are, and have been, accessed by trans people for some time. Or are you admitting that actually things work pretty well?

I really do understand peoples concerns but I am feeling hopeful the trans community will come together with support and resolve them. I can see evidence that is happening.

What evidence is that (genuine question)?

trisher - flat-earth?
Scientific evidence can demonstrate that the Earth is not flat.
What scientific evidence is there that someone can change sex?

Single-sex spaces? Mostly have been maintained, so far, by common consent.
If that no longer works, we'll have to think up new ways of doing things, not just proclaim that biological sex doesn't exist.

Well for refuges and prisons that information is available strangely enough. Same as hospitals. You know all those promises that were made about single sex wards.

I would resolve the issue by protecting same sex spaces
Quite how no one is certain. Genitalia inspections???

I would resolve the issue by protecting same sex spaces as detailed in the equality act. I would ensure there were also mixed sex spaces for those who wanted to use them. I would as a matter of urgency review the treatment for transmen and transwomen and ensure they are receiving adequate care and ensure there was adequate analysis of data and follow up. Sweden from what I understand have recently changed to a watchful waiting technique, and this has had a massive affect on what happens to those referred. Someone will have more knowledge on this study than me?

Astral

I mean I value trans people, others do not but I'm not accusing anyone of that, it's just a true fact that there are people who don't. Nothing hidden in my words at all. I really do understand peoples concerns but I am feeling hopeful the trans community will come together with support and resolve them. I can see evidence that is happening.

Just quiting myself now as I am too lazy to keep defending myself

Genuinely don't want to be unkind to anyone if at all possible

I don't think anyone on this thread has said, or even implied, that they value trans people any less than anyone else, Astral.
I never actively sought to make any of my DC conform to gender norms, in fact I think in the 80's there was less pressure to conform than there is now.
I think it's ironic that the organisations like Mermaid that profess to support gender-diverse children and young people are effectively encouraging them to conform to societal expectations by undergoing irreversible drug therapy and surgery.

Galaxy at no point have I advocated for getting rid of single sex spaces or anything of the sort. I haven't got a clue what to do about that and trisher offering ideas has been shut down.

This is what I mean when I feel disconcerted that others are making assumptions about what I think.

How would you resolve that issue in a way you feel comfortable? Because obviously you feeling comfortable and 13 year old girls feeling comfortable does matter.

Chewbacca

^Much the same was said when Gay sex was legalised.^

The only difference being that gay sex is between mutually consenting adults. A "young person" who is still in puberty, who hasn't finished growing, either physically, mentally or emotionally, is being enabled to make life changing decisions that will incur irreversible damage.

As for loos like disabled ones with washing facilities etc for everyone to use^; you're still ignoring the facts that the Freedom of Information data, that I provided @ 17.56 yesterday, which refutes claims that genderless public toilets and changing rooms ^are safe spaces for women and children.

When homosexuality was decriminalised the age of consent was set at 21. it was dropped to 18 in the 1990s, it wasn't dropped to 16 until 2000 because many considered boys would be corrupted by older men. (similar to trans youngsters not knowing what they want) There was also a huge outcry that homosexuality would destroy the very basis of society, the family. In fact gay couples behave much as straight couples do.
Chewbacca It really cannot be considered as acceptable 'evidence' about the safety of anyone with so few details about the nature of the complaints which could be anything from someone walking about naked, to thinking a man who picks something up off the floor is peering up your skirt. (The first by the way was made by a woman about women in the female changing area in my local pool)
FarNorth Whatever people do, they don't change sex. like the flat-earthers you are entirely entitled to believe that. However you are not enttled to impose your views on anyone particularly those who have changed gender.

Well yes but that's true of women though as well and children. And in particular children with autism. All these groups are not valued by many and are all in various ways involved in this. I am not having a go at you astral, and by the way I think it's ok to be angry sometimes as well. It was partly anger that achieved womens rights, it was partly anger that achieved rights for gay people. Nothing wrong with a bit of anger as long as it isnt directed at individuals

The people who know what is right or wrong for trans people are quite obviously trans people not me sitting on my bed with a cup of tea putting off the ironing

I mean I value trans people, others do not but I'm not accusing anyone of that, it's just a true fact that there are people who don't. Nothing hidden in my words at all. I really do understand peoples concerns but I am feeling hopeful the trans community will come together with support and resolve them. I can see evidence that is happening.

And the young people thing is interesting isnt it. A 13 year old girl recently took her school to court after it produced guidance that would get rid of single sex changing rooms etc. She won. So I am glad that 18 year old you saw was happy but the 13 year old girl wasnt, and I am unclear as to why her feelings matter less, and in being kind to one you are unkind to the other. It's a clash of rights that's the issue.

Moving house and later regretting the decision and/or having a tattoo that you later regret, are very small 'mistakes' are relatively easy to overcome, when compared to the monumental decision to take drugs and undergo surgery to change ones body from male to female and vice versa Astral.

That children who are allowed to dress as they wish, present as they wish, use the facilities they choose, are less likely to do any harm to themselves be that personally or with medical help.

I can't help wondering, trisher if children who are allowed to behave like that would actually be less likely to become confused about their gender. I'm still not convinced that cultural expectations don't contribute to gender ID difficulties/problems, call them what you will.

What do you mean by valuing astral who is not valuing them. I for one am asking that they have adequate medical treatment with proper safeguarding. Some studies show that the suicide rates increase after transition, it's almost impossible to say if that's the case because the lack of follow up/analysis of data is very worrying. I think your idea of valuing and mine are just different that's all.

My son has been showing me TIKTOK compilations of trans people very happy in their new identity.

One that made me emotional was a young man who had just turned 18 and his large group of friends had clubbed together to raise the money for him to legally change his name. He was sobbing with happiness.

I think that's missing from this thread, the sheer joy and happiness of those who have found their true identity and been loved and accepted for it.

I believe there are solutions. I will write to the school about their uniform policy. Girls should not be made to wear skirts just as a start and actually the girls uniform is much more expensive as they need special shirts and skirts whereas the boys can wear any black trousers and white shirts. Ridiculous disparity in uniform costs to parents. There is no need for a boys blazer and a girls blazer, they are barely different.

The rest of us will just have to find a way to feel comfortable with it or not I suppose. I am comfortable valuing trans people and that does not make me any less as a woman.

I won't stand in the way of the joy that young man felt being accepted and loved for who he is.

getting a tattoo

Good example.
People in the UK have to be 18 before being legally allowed to get a tattoo.

Astral

I asked, he said basically that it's probably easier now in some ways but not others.

Like their school has a strict uniform code that is completely different for boys and girls and it would be better if they were unisex with the option of skirts.

He said things like that force people to choose things relating to appearance in order to be seen as the gender they want to present as or feel more connected with. He also said that a lot of people are now choosing to be "gender fluid" in order to transition at their own pace or not fully transition at all which helps people experiment to find what matches their identity.

He said a lot I've already lost but those stood out.

It all seems like a sensible approach.

So actually your son does see some problems with the current situation but he's not particularly bothered because he's not trans.

Whatever people do, they don't change sex.

Much the same was said when Gay sex was legalised.

The only difference being that gay sex is between mutually consenting adults. A "young person" who is still in puberty, who hasn't finished growing, either physically, mentally or emotionally, is being enabled to make life changing decisions that will incur irreversible damage.

As for loos like disabled ones with washing facilities etc for everyone to use^; you're still ignoring the facts that the Freedom of Information data, that I provided @ 17.56 yesterday, which refutes claims that genderless public toilets and changing rooms ^are safe spaces for women and children.

But there is as always on GN when these matters arise the persistant idea from some that if you favour acceptance or care and support you are in some way also accepting that women will be harmed and children mutilated. I despair of those who can't see that one way you force someone into extremes of behaviour is by not simply accepting them. That children who are allowed to dress as they wish, present as they wish, use the facilities they choose, are less likely to do any harm to themselves be that personally or with medical help. And before anyone goes on about how girls need private spaces to deal with periods etc well guess what so do most people. So let's have loos like disabled ones with washing facilities etc for everyone to use. Let's have cubicles to change in which are secure. lets make sure everyone is safe and then let's allow people to present and identify as they wish. Because I don't believe it is going to be the huge catastrophe for society as some claim. Much the same was said when Gay sex was legalised.