Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

Doodledog well said ??

People can identify however they wish, but when a man (as defined by biological sex) chooses to define as a woman but still has male hormones and genitalia it is not unreasonable -nor discriminatory or prejudiced - for women (as defined by their own biological sex) to be as uneasy about being in positions of vulnerability around that person as they would around someone who was born and still defines as male.

There is no reason why someone can't begin their journey by 'trying on' the role - that seems to me perfectly sensible. What is not sensible (IMO) is that as soon as someone starts to define as female they should be able to access all areas. You appear willing to concede that there is indeed a journey, which is the reason why I feel unhappy about people at one end of it having the same concessions as those at the end. If there were no journey necessary, there would be no controversy, as far as I am concerned.

It is clear that you see yourself as belonging to some sort of free-thinking and non-discriminatory minority, to which the rest of us don't belong, which is offensive and arrogant. Just before you go, though, can you please back up your assertion that anyone on this thread wants to punish transwomen? As you have consistently been rude and offensive to people on this thread with whom you disagree, it would at least be a common courtesy to explain the reason for this accusation, and give us a chance to refute the accusation.

Loislovesstewie

It's difficult to find reliable statistics on the percentage of young people who decide not to transition having expressed a desire to do so, but one study says that it could be as high as 63%. I would suggest that is why people have to go through hoops and explain why they wish to transition, because there seems to be a huge amount of young people, particularly those who have high functioning autism, who say they want to transition when really there are other issues.
That was a very poorly worded answer to trisher BTW.

But might it not then be better to allow someone to begin that journey with no surgical or medical intervention simply by dressing as a woman or man and identifying as they wish to. They may then discover they really didn't want to do what they thought they did. It is also the reason many young people identify as non-binary and simply refuse to get into ridiulous arguments like the ones on this thread. In fact there I am leaving it. Carry on as you wish with your prejudices and discrimination I will simply accept people as they appear and believe that most people are not intent on causing harm to others whatever their gender.

Trisher From the article The American Heart Association says immediate CPR can double or triple chances of survival after cardiac arrest. Keeping the blood flow active -- even partially -- extends the opportunity for a successful resuscitation once trained medical staff arrive on site

Yes. It means that immediate CPR improves the chances of survival.
But it doesn’t say what those chances are, does it?

Eg, If only 5% of people survive without immediate CPR, and immediate CPR doubles or trebles their chances, that sounds impressive. But they still have only a 10% or 15% chance of survival.

Which is what the NHS article says.

It's difficult to find reliable statistics on the percentage of young people who decide not to transition having expressed a desire to do so, but one study says that it could be as high as 63%. I would suggest that is why people have to go through hoops and explain why they wish to transition, because there seems to be a huge amount of young people, particularly those who have high functioning autism, who say they want to transition when really there are other issues.
That was a very poorly worded answer to trisher BTW.

it began because I attend meetings where there almost certainly are transwomen and they are involved in protests and improving lives for women. It also provides a perfect example of how transwomen and women have the same issues.
Well yes, but that doesn't explain what it has to do with the thread. Also, I would still be interested to be shown an example of where anyone has said anything that leads you to conclude that they want to punish transwomen.

I'm not being difficult - I just don't understand why you think this, and you seem to be the only one to do so.

trisher
Your comment simply caught my attention. Tbh it is an interesting aspect of women's experience in healthcare, which is often overlooked.

Yes trisher you did raise the subject of CPR....
11/12 22:32 trisher
Yes that was why we discussed it. We discussed CPR on people with breasts as well and wore bras on top of our clothes for a photo shoot. There may have been transwomen present but they didn't object or do anything but support the ideas being raised. Why would they? You really do have a negatve view of what happens in real life situations

It seemed an unusual thing to do in a CPR discussion. That is why people on here have commented on it.

Doodledog it began because I attend meetings where there almost certainly are transwomen and they are involved in protests and improving lives for women. It also provides a perfect example of how transwomen and women have the same issues.
janeainsworth From the article The American Heart Association says immediate CPR can double or triple chances of survival after cardiac arrest. Keeping the blood flow active -- even partially -- extends the opportunity for a successful resuscitation once trained medical staff arrive on site.

I'm confused as to what CPR has to do with Amnesty's claim that there is no such thing as a biologically male or female body , or the reasons given by some of us for cancelling our subscriptions or support as a result of this claim.

There is potentially a tenuous link to institutional sexism, but transphobia? Surely that is a step too far?

Trisher the link you posted at 19.16 is to a study which compared survival rates between different groups of people who had suffered out-of-hospital cardiac arrests - those who received no CPR, those who received standard CPR, and those who received compression-only CPR.

Nowhere does it state the actual survival rate of any of those groups.

Unless I’m missing something. If that’s the case, maybe you could point it out to me.

Smileless2012

No trisher you only only see what you want to see. I haven't seen one post on this thread that even hints at wanting "to punish all transgender people for the violence of few". So I think an apology from you that this is the case should be forthcoming.

I see concern being expressed for the protection of women and that those seeking to transgender get all the information and support they need before embarking on this life changing journey.

I was about to post to say exactly this.

trisher - can you please point to where you see any evidence of people wanting to punish transgender people? Even when it is pointed out over and over that we are not doing anything of the kind you ignore us and repeat this mantra, or divert the conversation away from what we are saying to things like 70s feminism or CPR.

No trisher you only only see what you want to see. I haven't seen one post on this thread that even hints at wanting "to punish all transgender people for the violence of few". So I think an apology from you that this is the case should be forthcoming.

I see concern being expressed for the protection of women and that those seeking to transgender get all the information and support they need before embarking on this life changing journey.

There are numerous studies which detail the success rates of CPR www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190401075158.htm
Smileless2012 there is a difference between seeking help and being cross examined about your motives.
I see the view that we need to punish all transgender people for the violence of a few still remains. It's a rule that is never applied to the rest of the population.

Trisher This is from the NHS website:

This study reinforces the critical importance that CPR plays in the chain of survival. The study confirms that the sooner CPR is started, the greater the chance of survival (survival rate 15.6% if CPR was started within 3 minutes, falling to 0.9% if delayed by 15 minutes or more). Bystander CPR also increased the chances that the patient was in a shockable rhythm when the emergency services arrived (41.3% versus 30.7% in people who did not have CPR), and therefore potentially treatable by defibrillation
The survival rate after cardiac arrest is largely dependent on the time before CPR is started, but in any case is low.
It’s dangerous to think that CPR is frequently successful - it isn’t.
I was once told at a training session given by NE Ambulance Services that we should always attempt CPR on an arrested patient, but never feel guilty if they didn’t survive.

I don't consider that anyone wishing to transgender taking advantage of professional psychological assessment to assist them in their decision making, is in any way subjecting them to "medical intervention".

You appear to have missed the point I made in my post @ 13.46 trisher that an avoidance of such assessment, or it being watered down which looks like a distinct possibility with the ease of self identification, may be a disservice to those wishing to transgender and miss the opportunity of identifying those, however few, who may pose a threat to women in women's spaces.

As I also posted, the recent threats to women voicing their very real and understandable concerns about the ease with which men may be able to self identify as women, are doing this issue a great disservice.

How can anyone deny that those responsible for these threats do not present a potential threat to women; the very section of society they wish to become a part of.

trisher. “It is not being fair to transpeople to subject them to intensive and expensive medical intervention they do not wish to have . . . . unless the patient presents a threat to others treatment is usually voluntary.”

If you truly wanted to transition from male to female, why would you still want a penis, wouldn’t you want to be as ‘female’ as is possible? To the billions of people on earth, a human being with a penis will always be male and there’s very little that can be done to persuade them otherwise.

It is not being fair to transpeople to subject them to intensive and expensive medical intervention they do not wish to have. I can think of no other condition or situation where a person is forced to undergo such treatment. It is the way we once treated mental illness, but thank goodness we have moved on from that and unless the patient presents a threat to others treatment is usually voluntary.

petunia thank you for your post and your wide experience. It is contradicted by many studies which show CPR as very valuable and that bystanders are much more unlikely to perform CPR on a woman, stating as their reason fear of being accused of assault and touching breasts. www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5077643/Women-likely-receive-CPR-men.html
www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/culture/news/a39941/women-less-likely-receive-cpr-afraid-breasts/

"it is clear that when people say they want to be fair to trans people, and that they are not phobic about them, this is simply ignored in favour of an explanation of what constitutes 70s feminism or CPR". I completely agree with you Doodledog.

In the 70's when I was 14 or 15 I watched a documentary with my mum entitled 'George and Julia'. It was the heart warming and in some ways, harrowing story of George who transitioned to Julia. Her bravery in living and working as a woman for two years prior to surgery and the problems she had being accepted by her family, friends, work colleagues and society in general.

This was my first insight into trans gender; what it meant and the emotional, psychological and physical hurdles that needed to be over come.

You're absolutely right trisher transgenders have been living among us for decades but it is the rhetoric surrounding this issue that has changed, and in many instances not for the better.

Women who are voicing their concerns in a mature and measured way are being threatened with sickening acts of violence. So, if there is now a 'back lash' to the issue of transgender it is those people who are responsible, not those who are voicing their genuine concerns.

The Gender Recognition Act was two fold. It was to ensure as much as possible that those looking to transgender were fully committed and as certain as they could be that this was the correct decision for them.

It also IMO gave protection to women in women only spaces. As well as psychological assessment ensuring that the individuals concerned were fully prepared for the journey they were about to undertake, any 'red flags' as to their suitability and whether or not they could be a risk to women in women only spaces prior to a full transition, would also have been picked up upon.

It looks to me as if 'self identification' if it becomes legally available, will not require anything like the amount of psychological testing previously required, before a man can identify as a women, take on the outward appearance of a woman and access women only spaces as a fully intact male.

Off at a complete tangent, breasts and heart attack.

I believe that one of the problems with heart attacks and women is that a sizeable percentage (of women)do not present in the traditional, male based way. This has absolutely nothing to do with breast tissue. Their signs appear later in life and not so focused on the crushing chest pain. Because of this diagnosis can be delayed if the health professional, or indeed the lay person is not aware of this difference.

I would also say that unless you have access to a specialist team in a hospital situation, a paramedic, defibrillator or indeed someone who has had some in depth training and imminent back up, success in CPR is low, breasts or no breasts.

As to breasts themselves. They do not influence diagnosis or treatment. As someone who has undergone many sessions of CPR training in both the health service and with other organisations, presented by paramedics, St Johns Ambulance, designated health professional etc. (so that is at least once, if not twice a year on compulsory emergency training for 30 years and since retirement, probably 20 sessions with St Johns Ambulance) and also in real life situations, breasts generally are not an issue. When lying prone, breasts, unless augmented or particularly pert, generally flop downwards. The compressions are focused on the rib cage(sternum) not soft tissue. Its hard work compressing the rib cage and breasts don't matter.

And I would add, organisations that I have been involved with do not dither and prevaricate if they see breasts. Thats why health professionals train and refresh that training on CPR. They identify the situation and act on their findings: immediately. I have never seen or heard of someone withholding urgent treatment because of a pound or two of breast tissue

I think that Niceasmice’s suggestion of letting men embrace the difference is an interesting one. I haven’t thought it through and am not sure how (or if) it would work, but on a philosophical level it is certainly worth exploring as a way of getting to some of the underlying issues.

Regarding reading the thread, on the one hand I don’t see how people can join in a conversation like this without doing so, unless they seriously expect others to explain points they have already made over and over for the benefit of those who can’t be bothered to find them themselves. But whilst it is easy to miss some of the finer points, it is clear that when people say that they want to be fair to transpeople, and that they are not phobic about them, this is simply ignored in favour of an explanation of what constitutes 70s feminism or CPR.

There is a lot of selective reading going on, and it keeps moving the discussion from the objection of many - which is, as Galaxy says, to allow people with penises (however they define themselves) into spaces where people without penises feel vulnerable.

If not being allowed in those spaces during the transition time is too great a price to pay, I’m not sure where to go with my thinking, really.

How many incidents have their been involving transpeople in those 50 years?

Several. And one is one too many.

Chewbacca

I do want to improve the lives of women trisher, which is why I don't want to compromise their safety and security by allowing people with a penis into areas where we're vulnerable. It's as simple as that.

They are already there Chewbacca they have been there for a long time. It's 50 years since Jan Morris transitioned, 16 years since the Gender Recognition Act required someone to live as their desired gender for 2 years before they could legally change. How many incidents have their been involving transpeople in those 50 years?

if you cared to read the whole thread

And there is the problem! Who's going to read a thread from start to finish when it gets to 19 or more pages?

I do want to improve the lives of women trisher, which is why I don't want to compromise their safety and security by allowing people with a penis into areas where we're vulnerable. It's as simple as that.