Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

Are you suggesting that those of us who are uneasy about some of the issues do not 'accept people as they are'?

This is exactly what I was getting at in the last paragraph of my post above.

I think might join you growstuff because the more I read on this thread the more I realise it's nothing to do with logic or real life and everything to do with prejudice and preconceptions which can't be changed.

petunia

A perfect example growstuff is the organisation the is the subject of this thread. From supporting political prisoners they seem to have taken up arms in support of the trans community. Not that their support is a bad thing, but they went on to state
There is no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’ they are on shaky ground.
We are back to the changes in our language here. Sex and gender are two very different things, but while organisation unwittingly or other wise use gender instead of sex, we will get into an almighty muddle. Sorry, we are in an almighty muddle

I'm obviously being incredibly naive because I honestly don't see the problems and this thread has done nothing to enlighten me. I'll leave you all to it and just carry on accepting people as they are.

A relatively minor point in the context of this discussion, but a number of charities will lose out as a result of the intransigence of many transactivists.

As I said upthread, I have cancelled my subscription to Amnesty (after decades of support) and have also removed my support for Stonewall via the Amazon charity thing. These are just two organisations, but I am sure there will be many others who feel obliged to make a policy on the topic but find that it loses them support in the end.

Retail has run into problems by insisting that men who identify as female can use women's changing rooms (terrifying for many women who have been raped), there are instances in the NHS of women being treated by male staff who identify as female (same applies). Prisons are public institutions, and ones where very vulnerable people are housed. To allow men who identify as women to be treated as female is risky at best, surely?

In all of this, however, is the fact that transwomen who have fully transitioned are caught up in the arguments about men who self-id being allowed to call themselves female. IMO there is a huge difference between someone who has genuinely committed to being a woman, with all that this entails by way of hormones and surgery, and someone who still has a penis but wants to be considered female.

This is why there needs to be a debate, and why it is so frustrating for those who want to be supportive of people like growstuff's friends who just want to live their lives in their own way. We are told that we can't be supportive unless we accept that being female is about wearing a dress and using a female loo, and that we should move aside to allow men to join us in places that we have struggled to make safe from them.

There is no legal definition of the word gender and policies have mysteriously been altered to include this word.
Sorry *NiceasMice but there is a legal definition

The UK government defines gender as
a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

No probs petunia, both minds working on the same point is actually rather interesting.

In my opinion the word gender is not a word that should be anywhere near a legal document or policy.
Most people (including myself until a couple of years ago) have never realised how the word gender has bluffed its way into our common language.
Actually it has not bluffed its way in, it has been deliberately forced in, hoping no one notices. This deception has been admitted by a prominent trans activist academic on MN. Political tactics like 'keeping it under ther radar' or 'burying bad news' spring to mind.

ooppps sorry niceasmice. you beat me too it. i should have checked before posting

A perfect example growstuff is the organisation the is the subject of this thread. From supporting political prisoners they seem to have taken up arms in support of the trans community. Not that their support is a bad thing, but they went on to state
There is no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’ they are on shaky ground.
We are back to the changes in our language here. Sex and gender are two very different things, but while organisation unwittingly or other wise use gender instead of sex, we will get into an almighty muddle. Sorry, we are in an almighty muddle

FarNorth
Excellent thread op and a great opening post.

Tell me about the difficulties in policies adopted by education, public institutions, the NHS, retail, etc. What are the difficulties?

That is a great question growstuff.
I will start...
The word 'gender' has been applied where the word 'sex' should be. There is no legal definition of the word gender and policies have mysteriously been altered to include this word.
Government websites have been caught out misquoting the Equality Act and in some cases, missing out the word sex completely. Organisations use these websites as guidelines for their own policies, so there has been a trickle down effect of misinterpreting the law from the top.

The situation as regards transmen is ineresting -according to the "you can never change your birth gender" argument they must use the women's loo. Which means you will have people presenting as men walking into loos and changing rooms. Now it seems to me that it is much more likely that an opportunist male with voyeural tendencies would be much more likely to walk into a women's toilet if he could do so, and if challenged just claim he was a transman than that he would bother to get dressed as a women and enter such places.
So actually those arguing transwomen can't use women's loos are opening women up to more danger.

Chewbacca

Loislovesstewie and petunia excellent posts, thank you; the phrase "women having to run to stay in the same spot" articulates exactly my frustration that it's always been women who are told to change and accept things that doen^t benefit them, just to accommodate the needs of men.

BTW Some women transition to become men. How do they fit into this argument?

Chewbacca

^Where do people suggest they go to the toilet?^

If the have a penis they should use a urinal in the men's lavatory.

If they've had surgery, they don't have a penis.

Most women's toilets are private. How would you ever know whether the people using them have a penis or not.

petunia

Galaxy is right. The entire transgender argument always ends up in the women's loos!

I suppose that happens because its a tangible example of where we are going with this. Its much harder to argue and discuss the changes in language and the polices adopted by education, public institutions, the NHS retail etc. which in seeking to be inclusive to all, pushes over 50% of the population into a corner.
I think I said before, even a reform of the GRA is not the issue in a way. Even without that reform, changes have be made both openly and stealthily that affect women. Even if we don't know it yet. By talking about it and how it affects women does not mean we hate trans people.

I really don't understand.

Tell me about the difficulties in policies adopted by education, public institutions, the NHS, retail, etc. What are the difficulties?

Galaxy I really don't think you would ever know these two women were once men, unless somebody told you. Before lockdown, I worked with one of them as a volunteer in a charity. At the start, I wasn't even aware who it was, even though I had known her really well just a few years previously. I honestly don't think women would ever feel threatened by her, even those who have been raped or assaulted.

I have spoken to her mother about some of the discrimination she has experienced. Reading this thread, I can understand what the mother has described.

The other one is the daughter of someone who was once quite famous. I first knew about the transition when I read in a magazine about the father talking about his children. I was puzzled because I knew he didn't have a daughter when the children were at school. I remember the daughter from primary school and somebody whom I once taught. She's now quite successful in her own right and has her own Wiki page. There is no mention of gender on the page and I'm reluctant to say more.

Do we really all know transwomen Galaxy? So how do other people feel about the women they know?

Galaxy is right. The entire transgender argument always ends up in the women's loos!

I suppose that happens because its a tangible example of where we are going with this. Its much harder to argue and discuss the changes in language and the polices adopted by education, public institutions, the NHS retail etc. which in seeking to be inclusive to all, pushes over 50% of the population into a corner.
I think I said before, even a reform of the GRA is not the issue in a way. Even without that reform, changes have be made both openly and stealthily that affect women. Even if we don't know it yet. By talking about it and how it affects women does not mean we hate trans people.

Where do people suggest they go to the toilet?

If the have a penis they should use a urinal in the men's lavatory.

Loislovesstewie and petunia excellent posts, thank you; the phrase "women having to run to stay in the same spot" articulates exactly my frustration that it's always been women who are told to change and accept things that doen^t benefit them, just to accommodate the needs of men.

I’m not petunia, who may disagree, but IMO if a man has fully transitioned, and has female genitals and hormones then she has a right to use female spaces.

My issue is when men - or ‘people with penises’ - decide to identify as female and get automatic rights to access all areas, particularly when women who were born female are denied the same rights.

People ask why those who feel as I do want to politicise the matter. I wonder why people feel that men who want to be women but have done nothing about it should have laws passed that include then in the female sex. That is political IMO.

We all know transwomen growstuff. I would say that the provisions for exemption which are written into the equality act should be used. Toilets are neither here or there really, they are easily solved provide single sex and mixed sex. Or single cubicles with sink similar to disabled toilets. And have an open discussion with women on this subject because I dont get to say what's ok for women particularly those who have specific religious beliefs or those who have been traumatised by men. The provision of single sex facilities is part of the equality act, world rugby have taken the decision to remain single sex, so do I think your two friends should play on a womans rugby team for example no.
I am afraid that you cant possibly say whether women 'can tell' , many women who have been raped and assaulted are particularly attuned to those of the male sex. So when you welcome your friends into womens spaces you are excluding many women from those spaces.

Galaxy

No trisher I know all that. My point was it doesnt matter whether a man is nice or not, we dont segregate by niceness we segregate by sex. It was in reference to someone describing their friends who are transwomen as nice, which I am sure they are. My brother and sons are not dangerous, they are nice, there should be spaces however where they are not allowed.

I believe the "someone" was me. They're not my friends by the way. They're friends of my children. One went to school with my son and the other with my daughter. I know the mother of one of them and am quite friendly with her. My children don't seem to be at all phased by their transition. I'm not interested in identity politics.

I'm interested because I know them on a personal level, not as representatives of some movement. Where do people suggest they go to the toilet?

petunia So how would you react if you got to know the two transwomen I know (I promise you that you wouldn't suspect they were ever men) and then discovered that they had been born male? Would you ban them from using female toilets and using female changing rooms?

I'm angry too loislovesstewie. I'm angry that women are constantly having to run just to stay in the same spot. I'm angry that politicians roll over and capitulate with this illusion. I'm angry that the safety and dignity of women and children is being compromised in hundreds of different ways.

The original trans community, probably the one trisher speaks about, where transwomen seek to be accepted, appears to have been hijacked by a disturbingly political and misogynistic movement that is changing our society whether we agree or not. And worse, our public institutions, charities, employers, our retailers, our HR departments and education have swallowed the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. All this makes it difficult to be open and honest in conversations. To admit unease with the trans movement is like admitting you voted Brexit or you vote Conservative or Trump.

Can I add, being uneasy with the trans movement does not mean I hate transwomen or wish them ill. I am not anti trans but I am pro women.

And I'm still with JKR

Well said Loislovesstewie

And, BTW, I am bloody angry as now;
I am a person who menstruates (not a woman) although clearly I don't any more.
I am a person who has birthed not a mother.
I am a chestfeeder although when I fed my kids I was clearly using my breasts which were pretty impressive and turned a corner half an hour before I did. I was born with XX chromosomes which meant that I have female genitalia that over my life caused me to menstruate, ovulate, grow a baby in my womb, after giving birth my breasts naturally produced milk to nourish those babies, in other words biology caused those events. My husband couldn't do those things with his body. But now my very biology is being denied me to accommodate a small minority of people who want to be female but were born with XY chromosomes and apart from another small minority of people who are born with other combinations such as Klinefelters or Turners syndrome that is how the vast majority of us are made.
I have no issues with trans people whichever way they feel they are, neither do I have any animosity to those individuals who have an unusual syndrome but please let's not throw the baby out with the bath water, let the majority keep our hard won protection due to our biology but still acknowledge that others also need protection. Just not together.
One other point; are men now going to be, people with a prostate, or what?