What is fair? Covid - sudden change of policy!

I was told today of a nursing home that the staff refused to have the jab. Wonder what happens there then....

From the Guardian
Questions hang over UK's rollout of Oxford/AstraZeneca jab

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/30/questions-hang-over-uks-rollout-of-oxfordastrazeneca-jab

Westendgirl I Completely agree with what you are saying about Doctors and it is true for nurses too! I tried to sign up to help having retired after 40 years in the NHS as a qualified nurse and health visitor. I was told re register, complete your experiential learning and reapply! After 40 years you do not need much retraining to give immunisations! Although professional insurance would be a problem for volunteers actually giving the injection, there are so many ancillary tasks that need to be undertaken for which volunteers could be used. Sad to be on the scrap heap when it should be all hands on deck in my humble opinion!

My understanding is that for those that have already had the Pfizer vaccine, first jab, should still stick with the second appointment for the second jab.
For those that will be having the Astra Zeneca jab, it provides enough for the 2nd jab to be given as late as 12 weeks later. This way, more people will be able to be given at least partial immunity just by having the first injection.

growstuff . Thank you for being a voice of sanity in this debate. There is so much nonsense being spouted that it makes me despair.
The first Jab just primes the immune system the 2nd kicks it into life and allows for the creation of memory cells. Personally, I hope I am not offered the Pfizer vaccine, a 12-week wait for the booster might be OK but it has never been tested.

My mum is 97 and had her first vaccination in December. She is due to go and have the next one on 9th January, so will be interesting to see if that is cancelled. I have told her it might happen and she was quite upset about it but having read all the comments here it seems she may have to wait longer

Don't you think the government has nowhere to turn and rather than following what has been tested and proved with vaccine companies like Pfiser is doing a half attempt to get us out the problem. It is moving the issue down the line to the late spring when the consequences of changing dosage regimes will become apparent. I am afraid I don't have any confidence in the present decision making.

Robert Peston said on the news 2 days ago that someone had overlooked getting enough of the glass phials for the vaccine. He said you would think that someone had ensured we had enough before production of the vaccine started.

My son works in a retirement village and was due to have his second vaccine on the 8th January. He has just heard that his new date for the Pfizer vaccine is on the 5th March. I think they are going to start contacting people from the 4th January to postpone appintments for the second dose.

A lot of the delay will be down to logistics - getting the facilities set up and the right people, supplies, equipment etc to the right places at the right times. I was shocked today to read that the army has not been asked to lead or even assist with this yet. They have the skills, people and resources to do all of this and to do it efficiently. Why are they not being deployed to lead on this?
My daughter has applied for a paid job to set up the facilities. That's good on her but the the army is already there and trained and paid for exactly this kind of role in peacetime. My daughter is ex-army and can confirm this!!

lemongrove

NotTooOld

I am concerned about this, too, although I have not yet had a vaccination myself. However, this new policy has been approved by all four chief UK medics, including Chris Whitty. I understand that the Pfizer vax gives 90% protection from the first jab and the Oxford vax gives 70% protection from the first jab and this is good - the flu vax we have every year gives less protection than this. Both jabs need top-ups after three months but are effective three weeks after the first jab. We should know within two weeks, according to Jonathan Van Tam, whether or not we are able to carry the infection (ie perhaps pass it on to others) after just one jab and I think that is the clincher. If I am 70% protected after the first jab and not able to become infected and pass on the infection to others I will feel confident to carry on life as normal (if allowed) and not worry that I have to wait three months for the booster. Such worrying times we live in.

Good post, and is what I think too.
I understand your concern Applegran but it does sound as if you and others will be fairly well protected.
I think the GP’s are protesting because of the ‘paperwork’ involved in changing all the appointments.

The Pfizer trials suggest that efficacy drops to 50% if only one dose is given.

50% doesn't really give any sense of security. Covid-19 is more deadly than flu. Quite honestly, it wouldn't make much difference to the precautions people should take.

Happy New Year everyone,I’m not hear to have a fall out with anyone but the way I see it is if anyone has had 1 vaccine and have no side affects,that’s great. We are nearly all in tier 4 now and can’t go anywhere so if we all follow the rules what’s the difference. I’m 56 and have several health problems, last year my lung collapsed and I came home just before the first lockdown,there was no testing in March and my gp has now said I may have had Covid and now have long ten Covid, I haven’t been offered the vaccine yet but as long as I say home I should be ok.It’s just a case of waiting to be called

Pammie1

@Azelea99. I agree, but for slightly different reasons regarding age. I’ll probably have my ass handed to me for this, but what I’m taking from this so far is that in the main younger people flout social distancing laws because they consider themselves bullet proof and don’t think about the devastating effects of passing on the infection to others. Therefore if we vaccinate starting with younger people and work our way up, we would reduce the amount of infection in circulation and therefore slow things down faster.

But it doesn't work like that. There is no evidence yet that being vaccinated stops circulation.

The main criterion which was used to decide on the priority was preventing deaths. As far as I can see, the priority order is consistent with the general principle.

Any decision on deciding that one group is more important than any other for whatever reason is a political decision, not a medical/scientific one.

Theoddbird

A lot of surmising going on here. I understand that the gap between the jabs can be widened. This means that more people can be vaccinated in the first rollout as the extra time will be enough for the second jab to be produced.

Do you have any firm evidence for this? It's not what Pfizer is saying.

Caro57

Scientific advice tells us extended wait for 2nd jab is ok and it probably means you will get yours sooner

Can you give a link to that because it's not what Pfizer is claiming?

Nusgranny

I have a friend in her early thirties. She is a sister on a frontline Covid ward at our local hospital. She has not had a vaccine, nor have most people in our area, regardless of age. Today, she was confirmed as having Covid. Now she has to isolate , so cannot work, her brother, a teacher, has to isolate, so cannot work. Her Dad is in his 70's and has to isolate. Why were frontline workers not vaccinated first? I blame the Government for this chaos.

Because there aren't enough vaccines to go round and it was decided to give it to those who are most likely to die.

"JCVI advises that the first priorities for the COVID-19 vaccination programme should be the prevention of mortality and the maintenance of the health and social care systems. As the risk of mortality from COVID-19 increases with age, prioritisation is primarily based on age.
The order of priority for each group in the population corresponds with data on the number of individuals who would need to be vaccinated to prevent one death, estimated from UK data obtained from March to June 2020."

Where the vaccinations take place is not up to the Government but up to local NHS. Where I work a large leisure centre started as a vaccination centre before Christmas. A second one is due to start tomorrow and a small neighbourhood library the week after that. Last week the NHS, who had chosen the library decided it was too small. The centres used have to be big, spacious and airy to allow for social distancing and air flow. So , although it is very kind of hotels and all sorts of other places to offer their facilities, it really isn't that straight forward.

Scientific advice tells us extended wait for 2nd jab is ok and it probably means you will get yours sooner

SueDonim, whilst i sympatise that your mum has not yet had this, also you dont know that others who have are indeed not as much as, if not more vulnerable, for other unkown health reasons.Or indeed, job reasons.?

NotTooOld

I am concerned about this, too, although I have not yet had a vaccination myself. However, this new policy has been approved by all four chief UK medics, including Chris Whitty. I understand that the Pfizer vax gives 90% protection from the first jab and the Oxford vax gives 70% protection from the first jab and this is good - the flu vax we have every year gives less protection than this. Both jabs need top-ups after three months but are effective three weeks after the first jab. We should know within two weeks, according to Jonathan Van Tam, whether or not we are able to carry the infection (ie perhaps pass it on to others) after just one jab and I think that is the clincher. If I am 70% protected after the first jab and not able to become infected and pass on the infection to others I will feel confident to carry on life as normal (if allowed) and not worry that I have to wait three months for the booster. Such worrying times we live in.

Good post, and is what I think too.
I understand your concern Applegran but it does sound as if you and others will be fairly well protected.
I think the GP’s are protesting because of the ‘paperwork’ involved in changing all the appointments.

I feel frontline staff should be vaccinated first as they are needed to help the sick and vulnerable. If they are off work ill or isolating then there could be beds available but no staff. And where would we all be then! I have been self isolating since April but I would rather stay careful for a few more months and allow people to get the dose as prescribed by Pfizer ie 2 doses within 3 weeks. It is a nonsense to start changing times which haven't been tested by the scientists within the company. I think it will be different with the Oxford vaccine and have heard Sarah Gilbert say so. It is a different type of vaccine to the Pfizer one so I think there is more data to support her belief. I am really disappointed that the government is panicking by altering things and the idea of mixing doses of different types is lunacy. This all falls into the hands of antivaxxers who will take the dithering and changing to put folk off taking it. I had hoped the government in Scotland would not fall in with the change in timing of second dosage plan but it looks like our Chief Medical Officer has gone along with it too. Hugely disappointed that they didn't stand their ground about this.

A lot of surmising going on here. I understand that the gap between the jabs can be widened. This means that more people can be vaccinated in the first rollout as the extra time will be enough for the second jab to be produced.

All the research was done on the original timescale for first and second vaccines. My decision to have the vaccine was taken on the basis of that research. I’m not sure I’ll go ahead now they’re playing around with the timing.

@Dinahmo Perhaps because residents in care homes are more likely to go to hospital for things non Covid and could pick it up from there and take it back to the care home. You must have a short memory because that’s exactly what happened at the start of the pandemic. So many died.

How come anyone under 70 can get the injection anyway without underlying conditions.