can we discuss feminism please

Oh, no need for reporting! We've had enough of that lately, and I'm sure we are all robust enough not to need moderator intervention.

I do not see transpeople as freaks, however, and I do find the idea that I might both offensive and a massive leap of logic from what I said. Nor am I on the side of the patriarchy, and I would be interested to see why you think this is the case.

The phrases petunia refers are not about this thread, but about the wider world, where those expressing concerns are called TERFS, no-platformed, ridiculed and threatened.

I agree that pronouns are very small things, and regularly use ones which have been changed from the original - again, if and when I remember. I find it a bit strange, as pronouns are not used to refer to people directly, and the desire to tell people how to refer to them when they are not there always seems odd to me, but as you say, it is a small thing, and I do my best to get it right.

That is very far from the point that people are making here, though. It does seem that you are missing our points by a country mile.

Please see my comment above Iam64. But just to be on the safe side, I will report my own comment, asking if it contravenes GN guide lines.

Sorry Doodledog, I didn't mean YOU were those things, I think the patriarchy thinks trans people are freaks and are on the same side as you, seeing them as a threat, dehumanising them and not accepting them.. I meant to describe the way the patriarchy, or the bog standard, on the street male, and the male dominated system views them.

That is a highly emotive speech Petunia. 'shouted down', 'death threats', 'bewitched'. We are engaging in a rational discussion about a range of opinions on the same issue. Any issue will have people with different perspectives. If a student in my class asks me to call them, 'they' instead of he or she, it is SUCH a small thing. Half the time I will forget and I will apologise to them. No different to the girl a couple of years ago had changed her name.

The focus on gender specific clothes, leg shaving, boys toys etc etc is weird, on a thread aimed at discussing what feminism is at this point in its history.

Trisher used the descriptor boys activities, I am fascinated to know what boys activities are. I have seen an interest in insects as included in so called boys activities! It's always useful for them to be described as it shines a light on the sexism.

Galaxy

Again I am really sorry but you are talking in sexist cliches. Boys activities. Would you be able to describe what that means.

Who is talking in sexist cliches?

(And thank you, Iam64.)

GagaJo

*The patriarchy will be laughing up its collective sleeve at the idea that women claiming to be feminists are insisting on the right of men to barge into female spaces and be accepted as women.* I don't think it is actually. I think the patriarchy thinks trans people are freaks and are on the same side as you, seeing them as a threat, dehumanising them and not accepting them.

I see your comment was directed at Doodledog. Initially I’d seen it as another offensive, dismissive comment directed at anyone who disagrees with you on the trans subject Gaga.
I may be wrong but doesn’t your post contravene Gransnet guidelines.
It’s certainly totally inaccurate and very rude. It’s a personal attack in Doodle and by association most other contributors to this thread.

By the way the DFE has ruled that any teaching that includes sexist references to clothes activities etc must not be taught.
Charities such as mermaids are currently distancing themselves as fast as possible from those type of statements.

Again I am really sorry but you are talking in sexist cliches. Boys activities. Would you be able to describe what that means.

Agreed, and it is ironic that those who accept that people can identify into a different sex won’t accept that those of us identifying as non- transphobic are telling the truth.

Is there an anti trans movement? This seems to have passed me by. I see people expressing concerns and being shouted down and accused of bigotry and transphobia. I see women being pushed, hit and jostled by angry TRA's as they try and speak about women's issues. I see women being threatend with death threats and rape by TRA's for daring not to toe the party line. I see women loosing their careers because they believe that biological sex is real.

I think as a society we have become bewitched and bewildered by the trans phenomenon. Some political parties have embraced the cause almost to the exclusion of other societal problems. At times there is a Kafkaesque quality to it all. Our local online council meetings been reduced to a farce as committees, who have worked together for years, have started asking each other what their pronouns are and falling over each other to express their support of transpeople. The main issue on the agenda, road sweeping or emptying bins or whatever gets sidelined. That doesn't sound as if there's an anti trans movement in my local council and I suspect up and down the land there are similar zoom meetings going on doing exactly the same thing.

Expressing concern and asking questions is not the same as anti trans.

trisher I'm sure you didn't mean not to answer my question, but I'll repost it here as you obviously missed it.
Why do you think there is legislation permitting single sex space exemptions in the equality act?

Gaga, I promise that I am not dehumanising anyone, and nor, as far as I can see, is anyone else on this thread. What makes you say that, and why do you refuse to accept that the people on this thread are not transphobes?

It is not transpeople who concern us, we are concerned for the reasons we have repeated to the point of tedium.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

It seems a bit odd to me to state Transmen really dont have the advantages of a man. They have been socialised as girls for a start. And then when a case is presented that contradicts that claim state you are ensuring the straight jacket of gender is tightened, that person must be a boy because they have short hair and wear trousers.
I didn't say anyone was anything I said the child said she was a boy, chose a boy's name dressed as a boy and participated in boy's activities.
Now I'm not responsible for the social norms of all society much as you might like to make me. I'm simply pointing out the all transmen are not necessarily socialised as girls all their lives. I'm absolutely in favour of raising chldren in a gender neutral society and combatting stereotypical roles. But the issue of transmen remains and it isn't addressed by claming I think girls wearing trousers are boys which is entirely erroneous anyway.
Doodledog It may well be that the women's movement has been deliberately split. The question then being who will stand to gain the most from that split and I don't believe it is feminist men, transmen or indeed most men, it is the conservative reactionary right wing fundamentalist Christians you seem to be quite happy to align yourself with. They are rolling back abortion rights even now, whilst you spend hours arguing about transpeople and how they will ruin your rights, they are eroding them.

Galaxy

You arent smashing the patriarchy you are reinforcing it, you are ensuring the straight jacket of gender is tightened, that person must be a boy because they have short hair and wear trousers.

Agreed. The patriarchy will be laughing up its collective sleeve at the idea that women claiming to be feminists are insisting on the right of men to barge into female spaces and be accepted as women even though they have no experience of female socialisation or the sort of solidarity that comes from years of living in a patriarchal society.

A man wants to 'embrace his feminine side'? Oh, he must be a woman. 'Real men' aren't nurturing, communicative and caring.

A girl prefers wearing jeans and climbing trees to wearing dresses and playing with dolls? Well obviously she should have been born a man. 'Real women' want to wear make-up and have babies.

To me, those attitudes totally reinforce the patriarchy, and define gender roles which could (and should) be made obsolete, instead of people who don't appear to fit the societal norms which have been assigned to gender.

Genuinely misgendered people should have no problem with getting all the help they need to live whichever way they want to. For the 787304th time, however, that is not the issue. The issue is with self-identifying transwomen being granted the meagre concessions that women have fought for, whilst simultaneously keeping the numerous rights of men.

And like Iam64, I don't see anti-trans comments on here, but I do see anti-feminist ones. I agree with MBHP1 when she says:
I believe it is by design that the Women’s movement has been split, that women rights are being erased, that even the identity of ‘female’, ‘woman’ is being redefined.

I wasnt talking about the child. But those who equate those points with sex.

Galaxy

I think thinking trousers and short hair is anything to do with what sex you are is the ultimate in sexism.

It's a 3 year old. Not sure the child could yet be accused of sexism.

You arent smashing the patriarchy you are reinforcing it, you are ensuring the straight jacket of gender is tightened, that person must be a boy because they have short hair and wear trousers.

I think thinking trousers and short hair is anything to do with what sex you are is the ultimate in sexism.

i love it when I ask a question on here they can’t answer, the anti trans people On here refer to it as fantasy land

I don’t see posts from say Doodle, petunia and Galaxy for example as “anti-trans”. I don’t identify as anti-trans. Of course threads meander, as issues relevant to the OP occur. Why is it that every thread started recently with feminism at its core is dominated by arguments that trans people have a harder time than any ‘natal’ or ‘cis’ woman.

Oh yes, trisher!

Argh! Not two, too.

I am aware I am quite out of date now. But when I had contacts with the LGBTIQ community, I lost count of the number of transmen I came into contact with, in comparison to only two transwomen. This has been bourne out in my school experience two. All the trans children I worked with were m2f, and only one f2m.

And yet, the MSM and anti trans groups almost exclusively focus on transwomen.

Actually Galaxy I think the reason transmen are never mentioned in this argument is because they present too many difficulties for the "you have to stay what you were designated at birth" argument.
One of my GDs friends has insisted she was a boy since she was 3 (I'm using 'she" for simplification). She uses a boy's version of her name, always wears trousers, has short hair and takes part in most physical activities as a boy. Most people who meet her think she is a boy. So she is being socialised as a boy. I imagine she will transition asap. So her life experience will be male.

MBHP1 If you don't understand that trans is not just about wearing a dress there isn't much point in debating anything with you.

Rosie51 of course communal changing rooms exist but no one is forcing anyone to use them. And actually I am completely against them because I have no wish to change in the presence of a stranger whatever their gender. The fantasy is that anyone will be forced to use them.

I've said before that a feminist for me is someone who believes that the patriachy must be challenged and changed. And if someone stands besde me and supports the same ideas, I have no intention of inspecting their genitals, or asking for their birth certificate.