can we discuss feminism please

Transmen really dont have the advantages of a man. They have been socialised as girls for a start. They may be affected by pregnancy and its impact on pay etc. They may be affected by issues relating to maternity pay, treatment during birth, etc. It is why transwomen dominate the discussion and their needs are focussed on and transmen are barely mentioned despite female to Male now being much more prevalent. I dont think there could be a better example of the influence of sex than the difference between the treatment of transwomen and transmen.

trisher

I love the way when I ask a question that they can't answer the anti-trans people on here refer to it as "fantasy land" . This after they have posted imaginary scenarios of women being forced to share showers with what they refer to as "intact men". I have never shared a shower with anyone since my secondary school days when I was forced to do so with other girls and we all hated it, so the shower sharing is completely fantasy land. Whereas the situation of a transman having the right to be on a woman only shortlist should they wish to is actually the situation the belief that birth gender cannot be changed lands us in. Of course some transmen may be honourable enough to not do so, but who is to say if the opportunity came to advance themselves every transman would have such scruples? If you don't trust transwomen why on earth would you trust transmen?

trisher you persist in your baseless and offensive accusations. I am not anti trans and I didn't say a transman couldn't apply for a place on an all women shortlist, I just don't believe it would happen. However if one did, then yes as a biological female they would qualify. I would greatly suspect their motives though having transgendered and now wanting to be considered a woman.
Just because you've not used communal changing rooms or showers since school doesn't mean they don't exist and is completely fantasy land. It's not a matter of not trusting transwomen, it's the whole self ID that is the problem. The move to that any man can just declare that today he's a woman and should be admitted to all female areas is cause for concern. Why do you think there is legislation permitting single sex space exemptions in the equality act?

‘Some women will have experienced discrimination, some won't have’
Some black people will have experienced discrimination, some won’t have
Some gay people will have experienced discrimination, some won’t have
Some people with disabilities will have experienced discrimination, some won’t have
I think all of the above is incorrect because we can all have an experience that we are unaware is discriminatory.

If any one has undertaken race equality training you will know that the starting point is with your inherent racism, unintentional it maybe, however it is in us all including those who will or have been discriminated against. E.g. just because someone is gay does not mean they are not homophobic.

We know from research that discrimination comes in many forms and guises which is why we have in place the Equalities Act 2010, intended to protect us ALL but does it?

I think the trans movement is financed by the drug companies that profit from those who will spend a life time needing their drugs and by the Men’s Rights movement.

I believe it is by design that the Women’s movement has been split, that women rights are being erased, that even the identity of ‘female’, ‘woman’ is being redefined. My father, born 1920, who was a supporter of the women’s movement once said to me, most men want women to be, pregnant, bare foot and tied to the kitchen sink because that prevents independence, freedom of movement and them forming a sisterhood that can organise to challenge the status quo.

That was and still is the agenda...Equal Pay Act is still not being applied and that is only the tip of the iceberg.

I think a feminist is a woman who champions the rights of women and as science is clear that it is not possible to change sex then that means biological women. Men, like my father, and my sons, can support the feminist cause just as I, as a white person can support the ‘Black Lives Matter’ cause.

Men who feel that they are female have the right to present and express themselves as they wish and I want the world to accept that. That means that a man in a dress ought to use the Gents and if he is met with toxic masculinity then we need to address that.

Feminists need to organise, as we always have, around what is good for women and support men to address the toxic masculinity that is a curse to everyone and the planet.

Bl**dy typing. Excuse the errors pls.

It seems that for trans people they are not allowed anywhere. They aren't included in the group with their gender identity, but they aren't included by their physiology either.

What DO the those who don't support them suggest they do?

I do find it a bit odd that someone who is living as a man, presumably has all the advantaages of doing that can then use a process meant to advance women for their own benefit whereas someone who is living as a woman and presumably has encountered all the problems associated with this is barred from using the same process.

I do have an issue however with the spelling of argument.

I dont have issues with people because they are trans, I have issues with men in womens sex segregated spaces.

Then why would I not have a progressive gay man, black man etc. That's an arguement against womens shortlist not an arguement to include transwomen. I would have no problem with transmen on a womans shortlist. Why would I. It's like saying would I have a problem with women with short hair on a womans shortlist.

Galaxy I don't think I said all transwomen are left wing or progressive. I simply presented a case where the best interests of feminism were served by a transwoman. It is just as naive to imagine that all women support feminism. I could post a list of the women Trump used to progress his agenda but frankly I can't be bothered. It's irrelevant and nothing to do with the discussion which is would you rather have a right wing reactionary woman or a left wing feminist transwoman?

I love the way when I ask a question that they can't answer the anti-trans people on here refer to it as "fantasy land" . This after they have posted imaginary scenarios of women being forced to share showers with what they refer to as "intact men". I have never shared a shower with anyone since my secondary school days when I was forced to do so with other girls and we all hated it, so the shower sharing is completely fantasy land. Whereas the situation of a transman having the right to be on a woman only shortlist should they wish to is actually the situation the belief that birth gender cannot be changed lands us in. Of course some transmen may be honourable enough to not do so, but who is to say if the opportunity came to advance themselves every transman would have such scruples? If you don't trust transwomen why on earth would you trust transmen?

Gay men have experienced discrimination, black men have experienced discrimination, why should they not be in those shortlists.
Your belief that transwomen would support aims that support women is naive as well, caitlin Jenner supported trump for a long time, India Willoughby mocks women who dont shave their legs, dont present in a feminine way, etc, and Eddie Izzard is claiming to be a lesbian. Its naive to think transwomen will hold progressive views in the same way its naive to think all women will.

Why would a transman who identifies out of their womanhood, want to be on a women only shortlist representing women? I can't see that situation ever arising except in fantasy land.

One question which occurs to me is would a transman be acceptable on a women-only short list?

Galaxy

Sorry that is just nonsense. So transwomen have experienced discrimination and women havent. In terms of all women shortlists they were designed to overcome the barriers of sex discrimination not to put women you agree with in power.

Some women will have experienced discrimination, some won't have, particularly early in their career. They may experience it at some point in ther lives.
Most transpeople will have experienced it.
The barriers of sex discrimination are not limited to natal women, they are experienced by trans people as well.
Does feminism not then have a certain political aim? And how does a woman who is anti-abortion advance feminism?

They shouldn't be necessary, but where they are, it would be wrong, IMO, to allow them to be circumvented by allowing a man to self-identify as female and be allowed to join them.

I think that's an argument against all women shortlists rather an argument for the inclusion of transwomen. So some men (gay, black, straight, white, whatever) will have beliefs on abortion, equal pay etc that are more progressive than some women, therefore those men should be on all women shortlists. I am quite conflicted on all women shortlists as a concept but I understand why they were created.

Exactly, Galaxy.

And trisher, I think that it is absolutely the point. I am not arguing for arguing's sake.

I agree that not all women are feminist, but that is not the point, when it comes to employing women in an all-female shortlist. As has been said, they are rare, and exist only when women are (a) necessary to the role and (b) under-represented, so to dilute that by saying that a self-identifying man can do the job just as well is as ridiculous as it is anti-feminist.

Sorry that is just nonsense. So transwomen have experienced discrimination and women havent. In terms of all women shortlists they were designed to overcome the barriers of sex discrimination not to put women you agree with in power.

Yes, good point trisher. I know of women my DD's age who insist they are not feminists. We only have to think back to Thatcher for the damage women can do to women.

That's not the point Doodledog as you probably well know. The point is that feminist aims are not necessarily supported or enforced by women. Some women are reactionary. Transwomen having experienced intolerance and inequality are more likely to support minorities and oppose the patriachy which is I would have thought the real object of feminism.
What you could in fact be doing by insisting women only lists must be limited to people who are born female is sacrificing the long term ojectives of feminism for short term advancement.

If the job has not been earmarked for a woman, then I think it should go to the better candidate.

If there is a female-only shortlist, which happens rarely, but when it does is because women are massively under-represented, then I think it should go to a woman.

If the woman you describe is not suitable for the role, this will become apparent at interview, in which case the organisation should readvertise until they find the right woman for the job.

The transwoman can apply for the vast majority of roles which are not reserved for females only. There will be a reason why the one you describe has insisted on female applicants, and this should be respected.

Ok so here's a question for you There are 2 people up for a post in an organisation which will significantly impact on the lives of a lot of people. One is a transwoman with left wing views who is agnostic, belongs to some charitable organisations and has a record of activism in human rights, the other is a natal woman from a right wing Christian group which opposes abortion and same sex marriage. Who would you rather got the job? Because I know who I'd go with.
And before anyone starts on about it could be 2 women. This isn't a likely or possible case it's just an example that it isn't necessarily a good thing that women are appointed to high office because some women do not have the best interests of most people at heart, and although the same may be said of some transwomen they have for the most part endured a long journey which has taught them about inequality and intolerance. They are therefore more likely to oppose patriarchal views and work for equality.

I understand that not everyone shares my view but it would be nice for political parties to even acknowledge that there could be some issues and that maybe instead of rushing headlong into a brave new world, we need to consult outside the pressure groups.

The thing is petunia, not even all feminists support your view. I acknowledge and understand we all have a right to our own opinion, but this isn't the be all and end all, for all feminists.

I support trans rights. I don't see m2f people as the threat some do. And the vast majority of trans people I have met have been F2M anyway.