can we discuss feminism please

Galaxy Being non-binary isn't just about "presenting" it's also about asking for recognition and abolishing the only 2 genders system. It isn't "tinkering at the edges" it's a political statement.

I don't think you can blame porn for a girl thinking her nose is too long. The first nose jobs were done a long time ago.

Radical feminism has much to say about plastic surgery and the expectations that are placed on women. It's a very bog standard feminist discussion, again I would argue much of that is caused by porn.
But no one cares how people present, non binary people can present how they wish who cares, it wont have any affect on the patriarchy, they will still experience sex discrimination, pay gap, risk of sexual assault etc, none of that changes because some women have short hair. As the article stated its tinkering at the edges and well achieves nothing on a societal level.

But we do "buy in" to many forms of societal expectations that involve changing bodies without much outcry or complaint. Nose jobs for example are now incredibly common, boob jobs similarly, in fact many American girls have both as soon as they are able and no one condemns them for being dissatisfied with their physical appearance, or implies they have mental health problems. Yet what they are doing is also damaging to the expectation of what is regarded as female.

MBHPI What you do by condemning those who believe transitioning is the only solution is to condemn them for the problem society has created. If you have been raised to believe women behave in certain ways and men in others and the thoughts you have do not match those beliefs, or the body you have, of course you will want to change yourself. If you then have to choose a gender, and have only 2 choices, you have tried one and it doesn't fit, it actually causes you pain, what other choice do you have?

No one is dissappearing women simply opening them up to a wider choice in their lives. It's the reason many young women now choose to identify as non-binary. Not only does it free them from the restraints of traditional gender roles it sends a message to the patriachy that male rules no longer apply.

Doodledog - I agree with your last post. I would add, due to a further post with an accusation of ‘obsession’, that I am not prepared to give any more attention to arguments that are addressed in such a way. Being new to Gransnet I expected mature, considered discussion and for the most part have found this, thankfully.

It was me who raised my concerns on this thread about women and children’s safe space as I believe this to be a practicality that is limiting women’s freedom of movement therefore a feminist matter.

I thank those who took my concerns and feelings seriously, who validated, my personal worries and fears about my personal safety, my concerns for others safety and well-being and as part of the bigger picture my distress about women as a sex class being, ‘disappeared’ to accommodate men’s ‘feelings’.

I have not as yet mentioned that I am also distressed by the fact, as has been shown on this thread, that some women are aligning themselves and championing a movement that is party to that determined cause of ‘disappearing’ and in my view that is anti feminist and a betrayal of their own sex class - Women.

I intend to continue to engage in discussions about feminist matters on this thread and would like to see a feminist forum on Gransnet. I have made a direct request for this, I hope others do too.

Feminist connection here - I hope this doesn't deflect the flow of the thread. Jocelyn Bell Burnell will be on Jeremy Vine at 13:30 today talking about how her male supervisor got a Nobel and she didn't (Spoiler alert - she doesn't mind!)

Galaxy

Yes as I have said it is a very poor misogynistic law. Telling people and in particular children that they are born in the wrong body is appalling and even the likes of Mermaids are now pretending they didnt use the term because its such an awful message.

This is my take on it.

The problem, as I see it, is that rather than society changing, individuals are buying into the gender norms and assuming that they have to 'be' a woman (or man) in order to 'act like' one.

As well as that there will be people who are genuinely misgendered, in that they will never be happy until they have transitioned. These people are rare, and have traditionally been the ones who have had issues with the ever-quoted lavatories and changing rooms. I think that most people would be sympathetic to their being able to use female ones, and their cause has been massively hijacked by the 'anyone can be a woman if they say they are a woman' thing.

As far as I am concerned, people should live their best lives however they choose, as long as their rights don't impinge on those of others. The minute someone with a beard, a penis and a dress wants to change next to me in a female changing room, that is impinging on my right to feel safe and comfortable. I have never been a prisoner, (and long may that continue!) but if I did find myself in jail, I would already be terrified, and knowing that I was sharing a cell with an untransitioned man would only add to that fear. Knowing that woman can also be violent would not reassure me, incidentally - it would make me feel so much worse!

Women have finally got some way towards equality in the workplace. Having men define as female but still get preference because they won't take maternity leave or have periods would erode that. Men on the right side of the 20% gender pay gap joining the female stats would skew those towards appearing fair. Men appearing in female crime stats because they identify as such will skew those so it looks as though women commit as many violent crimes as men and erode the perception that we need more protection. There will be numerous other ways in which women's hard-won rights are eroded - many of which nobody has thought of yet.

This is yet another example of the patriarchal system imposing its gendered perspective of the world onto women, without asking us whether we are happy with it. Men remain men, and women are 'everybody else'.

I think there is a lot of exaggeration by feminists over gender equality it is not unusual at all to see women driving trucks or tractors, or production line workers in factories. Engineers, architects, and all the professions, women are well represented and quite often dominant.
There is no reason why a woman cannot be a plumber or electrician or bricklayer, looking around I’ve never seen any so I guess it’s not attractive to them, nor is laboring work of any description. Most women would much prefer to work in a clean indoor environment, leaving the men to do the dirty outdoor work in all weathers.

Child care is an issue that is never going to be solved, there is no solution for all, state aid should be expanded to allow individuals more choice.

When I was at school, an English teacher explained to us that if the system was better, we would be in grammar school, instead of the state system. He told us to remember that we were individuals and we should strive to be the best we could be and treat others with love, compassion and respect. When I went to university, a visiting Imam lectured us on the idea of always questioning and challenging, as well as being conscious of how to be a warm and rounded human being. In time, I became an English teacher. I always reminded each and every pupil that they should always be striving to be the best version of themselves, as beautiful heart warming individuals. I reminded them that they are MY future and it was incumbent upon them to strive for a better future for all.

Galaxy I think she has some very interesting things to say and some relevant things from past feminists. Meantime though I really don't think we should punish trans people because they have the wrong concept, we have to accept them and include them

Yes as I have said it is a very poor misogynistic law. Telling people and in particular children that they are born in the wrong body is appalling and even the likes of Mermaids are now pretending they didnt use the term because its such an awful message.

Trisher that person is comparing the two perspectives, they are wanting to abolish gender. It's a bit wordy but it's also a good analysis of the issues of porn, bdsm etc.

Galaxy but the law and society as it is demands that person change. So a transwoman can remain male if he wishes but will have to use male facilities and put himself at risk. Not surprisingly the only option for most people raised in a patriarchal society is to see themselves as having the wrong body and needing to change. It takes a great deal of objecive thinking to see a societal and not a personal problem in that situation.

Which is what radical feminists ultimately want Doodledog It is the system of having only 2 genders that forces people who are unhappy as one to choose the other.
Ideally in a feminist society
Genderqueer’: women and men reject the binary system, identify as ‘gender outlaws’ (e.g. queer, trans) and demand recognition for a range of gender identities. (From this perspective, the ideal number of genders would be… infinite?)
It's one of the reasons young people are becoming non-binary and rejectng the accepted divisions.
It is something I am coming to understand more about.

I am a radical feminist. I absolutely want to abolish gender. I agree with most of the article, gender is oppressive. So women and men can wear what they want, do what ever activity they want, it has nothing to do if they are a man or woman. So if a man wears makeup, dresses etc that's brilliant, but it doesnt make him a woman because that would be reinforcing gender.

Better in that case to change gender norms and expectations so that we no longer have ‘traditionally male’ sports, or traditionally female pursuits. That way women could box without comment (which I thought they already did) and men could take up whatever activities they wished without claiming to be women.

I think we have come a long way down that road anyway. There are fewer ‘traditionally make/female’ sports and activities than there used to be. What would be a concern however is if biological men define as women and compete against biological women. In many sports this would give them an unfair advantage, and in the case something like boxing it could be very dangerous - because sex is not gender, and male bodies are biologically different from female ones.

I don’t think that taking up ‘male’ activities is necessary to be a feminist (radical or otherwise). There is nothing unfeminist about doing what have been defined as traditionally female ones, if we enjoy them.

There is no reason why the expectations of what men and/or women should do should not broaden, rather than people feel the need to change their bodies to comply with current norms.

Petunia it isn't some academics who are redefining things it is women who choose to wear what are traditionally described as men's clothes, to take up sports which have traditionally been men's sports, like boxing and asserting their right to do so. They are the radical feminists. It would help if the discussion could be widened away from an obsession with transwomen. They are not the only people looking for change.

“An aspect of personal/social identity, usually ascribed to you at birth on the basis of biological sex (but this ‘natural’ connection is an illusion—as is the idea that there have to be two genders because there are two sexes)”

This is where we all part company I think. Because some academics have redefined gender by removing the biological aspect, we are all to fall into line? Sex Is binary, observable, measurable, definable and real. The illusion is the multifaceted, every changing term gender, which means whatever you want it to be.
It is hard for society to arrange itself around such nebulous term. In fact it is dangerous to do so. A perfect example is a small piece I read this week about the rising number of female sex offenders. As sex offending is unusual among females it was a headline. Turns out the most of the females weren't biological females at all.
Removing biological sex from the equation throws up so many issues that need addressing. And just because a handful of academics wish to do so doesn't make it right.

This is one of he most interesting articles about gender and feminism I have ever read. It shows a way to real change. She also has an interesting piece on women who are "butch".
finnmackay.wordpress.com/articles-i-like/talking-about-gender-by-joan-scanlon-and-prof-debbie-cameron/

trisher

OOh Ro60 expect trouble! when I mentioned women who encouraged violence and talked about what used to go on in girls' toilets in schools I was accused of being mysoginistic, goodness knows what you will be seen as if you actually acknowledge there are violent women.

You are putting words into people's mouths here, and completely reframing what has been said, as well as dragging other threads into this one.

It is not that anyone wants to pretend that there are not violent women, but when this is used as a reason for not protecting women from violent men (of whom there are far more) people are likely to question the logic.

Similarly, when women are blamed for male violence, or male violence against women is excused/explained by using one example from a particular set of circumstances it can easily be read as misogyny.

The tone of the post I've quoted ('Ooh! Expect trouble!) shows how little respect you have for the views of others on this forum, who have been very patient throughout the numerous threads where you have implied that we know nothing of either feminism or the trans debate, simply because we disagree with your views.

petunia

Iam64. Thank you for your comment. The written word on a forum such as this can sometimes seem a little harsh when that wasn't the intention. Add to that auto correct and lock down brain mush and its a miracle we can all be civil. Ha ha.

The subject of modern feminism interests me. Trisher has alluded to different strands of feminism. Makes sense in one way but in another, it dilutes the core aims of the old style feminism.

There have been many posts accepting that we have equality in law but reality is somewhat different. I would be interested to hear what the modern feminist movement has to say about this.

Petunia - Perhaps we need to review the 7 demands of the Women’s Liberation Movement? Maybe this would show how far or not those demands have been met and set a new agenda.

It seems what ever logical arguments that are made it will need a tragedy to happen and not just one before some people will be convinced that predatory men WILL pretend to be women if they see it will give them access to women and children’s spaces, of that I am in no doubt.
I do not feel safe in toilets or changing rooms anymore and many women feel the same but our FEELINGS we are told are not valid, are based on prejudice etc etc...heard it all before in relation to anything women have to say about anything. I hope I never find myself in prison where my voice matters even less because my safety will not be guaranteed from men who are pretending that they FEEL they are women.
In simple terms, it is as history shows, men’s feelings are accepted as more valid than women’s.
Not feeling very positive today and angry that all the sacrifices that women and some men have made to advance the equality and equity for women is being undone and for it all to come to this...
best hold back a bit...

Anyway, in a previous post I made reference to the following and found this eventually.

"There is an almost complete lack of statistical data on the relationship between gender-identity policies and incidents of sexual violence in bathrooms and change rooms.

Using Target stores as a case study, we analyzed 220 media-reported sexual offenses in Target stores from 2003 to August of 2017 to determine the association, if any, between their gender-identity access policy made public in April 2016 and reported sexual offenses in their stores.

Results: Sexual incidents increased over the course of the entire timeframe of the media reports. In particular, voyeurism-related offenses (Upskirt and Peeping Tom) increased significantly after the publication of Target’s gender-inclusion policy in April, 2016.

The three-season forced-category measurement found a 2.3x increase in the amount of upskirt incidents after the policy, and a 2.9x increase in peeping tom incidents after the policy.

In a Poisson regression, using trimesters to control for seasonal variations in offenses, the fold change in rate from the four year pre-policy period to the post-policy period was 3.03 for Upskirt and 3.14 for Peeping Tom.

Using a two year pre-policy period, the rate change was 2.16 times for Upskirt and 2.34 times for Peeping Tom.

Conclusion: While media-loss remains a limitation in the analysis, the present study supports the theory that sex predators may take opportunities afforded by gender-inclusion policies to perpetrate sexual violence against women in public spaces.

No other theory seems to account for the significant and precisely-timed increase seen in the Target reports. Further study would be helpful to compare police reports to media-reported crime and to geographically match Target with similar stores to investigate whether sexual offenses have increased elsewhere...."

From 2017 - still relevant.

womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

Trisher ?? ?

OOh Ro60 expect trouble! when I mentioned women who encouraged violence and talked about what used to go on in girls' toilets in schools I was accused of being mysoginistic, goodness knows what you will be seen as if you actually acknowledge there are violent women.

Can't believe still talking about toilets ?
since we are - let's not forget how violent women can be too - especially in a nightclub toilet after a drink!

Years ago I felt safer around the men than the bitchy women.

Galaxy

I know trisher and I am talking about facilities segregated by sex.
Actually trisher when men are claiming to be lesbians we are going to talk about it, I am not going to not challenge homophobia because it makes people uncomfortable.

Sorry Galaxy who is being made uncomfortable or being homophobic?
I have tried to stick entirely to facts on this issue and not introduced transphobic arguments because I don't think it is helpful.
I do however find this discussion absolutely illogical.
The philosophy seems to be- we must define the word "woman" but even if that is done, how will that be applied in practical situations?
Will you insist that transmen use women's facilities ? If so isn't it possible that a man could claim to be a transman and access them? And if transmen are to use men's facilities then shouldn't transwomen use women's?
Galaxy worries about transmen in male toilets, but transwomen are in just as much danger and would be made to use them. Do they not deserve protection as well?