can we discuss feminism please

Oops! Try again

See above for link to programme about crimes with cameras etc

Paperbackwriter I was quoting Sweek1, but don't know how to do the quote thing.

I was thinking about Simone De Beauvoir's assertion that women are complicit in maintaining their position as "other" and allowing men to remain as powerful. I know this won't sit well with some on GN but I do wonder if we do unconsciously buy into this. I'm thinking of the many posts about how male partners or husbands can't be trusted to do household tasks because they don't do them properly. In any other situation you would insist the person did the task more often until they improved, but some women don't do that. I recognise that when I had small children I was intensely protective of that role and had difficulty passing responsibility to their father. I think for women today it must be incredibly difficult accepting equal roles in childcare . But if we don't make men responsible for the everyday tasks and childcare how can we move away from being seen as only homemakers and become equals.
This was written by a women called Lisbeth Simm in 1913.
To rid ourselves of ancient superstitions regarding woman’s proper sphere: to equip ourselves for the work of to-day, public as well as private; to join hands in good faith and comradeship with all those willing to work with us. Surely this is not difficult? Surely working women will not refuse? Then it may soon become a matter of urgent practical politics to relieve the working woman of much that is now considered the necessary work of each separate home, so that the energy and thought this set free may be used for the development of an altogether higher standard of human life; and women’s labour in the home be recognised as other than a desirable but unpaid for appendage to the labour of the working man. In our visions we sometimes imagine a time when poverty and misery will be banished from our midst - the time is not yet, but it is brought nearer whenever a woman realizes that poverty in a land of plenty is an unnecessary evil. First then, as working women, we must combine; second, educate and agitate; third, administrate; and so by easy stages gradually take our proper place as comrades and equals with men in the great family life of the nation.
She was a workng class woman now largely forgotten. She also wrote that women didn't attend political meetings because men didn't do their share of the housework.
How far have we moved on since then?

Just for information, Ilovecheese a breeding female cat IS called a queen!

Ahh, found it, with great difficulty ?. One result was that the page had been moved with pic of a cow!!!!
Anyway...replying to a question about using loos on the continent - my experience of using unisex loos there, is that it is one cubicle just of the main cafe/bar. I have found some difficulty using them when wearing loose trousers. I don’t sit on the seat of non domestic loos so that means hovering, then to keep the bottom of my trousers of the floor (floor usually covered in urine from missed bowl urinating) heisting up the legs, holding on to them, whilst trying to pull my pants down and forward....sure you all get the picture, so all round inconvenient in unisex convinces (sorry, couldn’t resist that ?). Our loos are usually tucked away, some down/up stairs, unless they are for easy access use. They are often behind two closed doors with a line of cubicles with walls that have gaps bottom and top. ‘Up skirting’ became a common occurrence so a law, campaigned for by women, had to be created. A unisex loo provides opportunities for toxic masculinity to work its self into behaviour /action and videoing is only one concern.
For men who identify as women, to gain a gender recognition certificate (GRC) they must evidence living as a woman and using Ladies loos, changing rooms etc is seen as evidence.
So, considering unisex loos for women, children is a risk and for those men who are transitioning also puts them at risk whilst not providing evidence. The solution in long term is to address toxic masculinity so anyone and everyone is not at risk and in short term keep Ladies loos for women/children use and create loos for men who identify as women, this can be considered as sufficient evidence for the GRC. Same for changing rooms etc. Right now, the unpalatable choice, because it is not a win-win is that we have a duty to reduce the risk to children and follow the Equalities Act 2010 that has as a protected characteristic ‘Sex’. So, all who are not providing loos for the use of women and children only are breaking the law. There is some research into the impact of this and I will try to find it and post if I can work out how to do that.

Reading through some of the posts on this thread I see I have some common ground with others e.g. the patriarchal property and for non profit issues, as well as a recognition of the need to put women and children’s rights at the centre, where ever we live on this earth, and allow this to inform our views.

I really must check my posts for punctuation before I post.

MBH it's all there. There are lots of pages to the thread, sorry if I am saying somethungmobvious but I dont know what you mean. It hasnt been censored.

Doodledog - I can’t see it!

It seems it is ok for the Westminster parliament hall to have roaring folk, mainly men, who don’t listen to each other televised to the world, whilst mature women engaging in civil discourse is censored!

That censorship is a feminist matter.

Debate is healthy, it challenges our opinions, sharpens our arguments and has the potential to find common ground if there is good will all round.

If you mean on this thread, it’s still there.

I can’t find any of the discussion I was involved with yesterday. As I am new to Gransnet can someone advise please? I hope it has not been removed.

Another patronising and ridiculous suggestion that posters have ‘only just’ found out about trans people. Yes this is a group of women who sang along with The Kinks - in my case along with discussions with my parents about trans.

You seem to see yourself as being victimised because you’re the only poster with the knowledge trisher. It’s becoming impossible to discuss feminism without This happening. I’d like to see more posters contributing to feminism discussions but that’s not likely

Actually I thought it was pretty plainly agressive. I suppose though that is something I'm not allowed to be because I'm a woman.

Without bringing the other thread into it again, may I just say that the above passive aggressive interpretation is absolutely not the same as mine

Not that keen on Bowie to be honest. Discussing male violence is not shutting anyone down.

Galaxy I think you have the gist of the argument. Raise any other issues than the standard women are victims into the discussion and you will be shut down with "women are murdered" "you are blaming women". Along with we know about it, we just don't want to discuss it. We prefer to focus on the issue of trans people who have been with us for years but who we have just found out about.
It's 50 years since the Kinks sang Lola and almost 50 since Bowie's Rebel Rebel. Which I was listening to today- 5 years since he died!
In his words "You've got your mother in a whirl, cos she's not sure if you're a boy or a girl."
It seems that some are still in a whirl, maybe it's just the young who accept things more.

Although I am obviously slipping and missed a good row

Galaxy

It's also really difficult for those of us who werent on the thread to follow what is happening here!

Fair comment.

It's also really difficult for those of us who werent on the thread to follow what is happening here!

ETA: This does not mean that I condone teaching small children (or medium or large ones!) to fight. Clearly, that is something that needs to be addressed as well as the root of the problem.

I don't think that anyone did deny that the problem exists, but bringing it up as an explanation for male violence in the context of a discussion about why many vulnerable women are uneasy about sharing intimate spaces with men wasn't particularly helpful.

People had said that one of the reasons for women feeling uneasy about untransitioned transmen being allowed into DV refuges was because of male violence, and were told in response that some women were responsible for male violence. This was never going to go down well, particularly coming from someone who had been lecturing the rest of us about feminism throughout the thread whilst simultaneously putting the needs of transmen above those of women.

Nobody said that your example was untrue - in fact there was a video of women in the NE (I think) who were doing just that about ten years ago, and it was reported on the news. Any objections on the thread were to the way that the behaviour of the women in this incident was presented as being responsible for male violence instead of any of the numerous other examples of the way the socialisation of men can breed a violent outcome, or, for that matter, the fact that there would have been no reason for the women to 'train' their sons to fight if the men around them were not already violent.

A parallel example might be to say that because some mothers encourage their daughters to dress modestly so that they don't get raped, we should criticise those mothers instead of cracking down harder on rapists who use women's clothing as an excuse.

In your example and mine, mothers are socialising their children into the norms of the society to which they belong, but in so doing are limiting their lives. In both cases, I feel that the best way to deal with the situation would be to deal with the behaviour that has necessitated that sort of socialisation rather than demonise the mothers for finding ways to mitigate it.

male violence will not be eradicated until we fully understanding appreciate the complexities of violence in families. Of course there are women victims of violence but. the problem isn't limited to them
Two women a week are murdered by men. Feminist analysis of violence in families is something that's been studied as part of training for anyone working with families, individuals male and female for certainly the many years. Clinical psychologists working in prisons or projects providing alternatives to custody are not ignorant or ill informed. There is definitely a need for more work to challenge and support men who want to change their behaviour. Yes, early years i a good starting point.
Family Centres/SureStart centres were doing good work in developing courses and individual support packages for families were violence was part of life. Of course the austerity programme and the total lack of understanding or concern shown by successive Conservative governments has slashed those.

I said that women sometimes encouraged and shouted at men when they were being violent. I was then accused of hating women and of being mysogynistic and of blaming women for male violence. It isn't blaming anyone to point out a problem. I find it interesting that those of you who hate to be called transphobic find it so easy to use such condemnatory language against another woman.
I really don't understand why you would deny the problem exists, or blame me for raising it, if you have experienced it.
Male violence will not be eradicated until we fully understand and appreciate the complexities of violence in families. Of course there are women victims of violence but the problem isn't limited to them.
Early years intervention might help, but equally such work may actually be minimised when the child grows older if the culture he grows up in expects, no demands, that boys solve their problems by fighting.

It's also impossible to know who has experience.