can we discuss feminism please

How ironic that link features Rosie Duffield, she who got a torrent of abuse accusing her of being transphobic because she liked a tweet which said "individuals with a cervix" should be described as "women".

Really Doodledog do you not understand that trans people suffer from a very real condition called Gender dysphoria? It is nothing to do with "men embroidering doilies"or "women fixing juggernauts" it is nothing to do with gender norms.

Dodledog I'll try again some people with medical conditions are judged unsuitable for transitional surgery, so much as they might want to transition, they cannot. According to your judgement they will then have to continue to use all facilities, be they loos, changing rooms or any others designated for the gender they have rejected. Is that really compatible with human rights?

Incidently I don't think you advance the representation of women by focussing upon transwomen. You do it by activism and encouraging and supporting women. You do it through things like this 5050parliament.co.uk/ask-her-to-stand/

Agreed, MBHP1. It's more of a 'redress the balance now these pesky women are getting demanding' movement.

The politicising of trans support is mostly coming from those who cry 'TERF' and harass women who ask questions. There is no need for anyone to be in a gender limbo. People can do whatever they like, and identify however they wish.

As far as I am concerned (#ad nauseam), so long as biological men are not able to access the very limited number of spaces where women feel vulnerable, to use their biological differences to an advantage (eg in sport), or impose themselves onto all-women shortlists, they can do what everyone does, which is accept some gender norms and reject others.

The more people who do that, and don't reinforce the binary, the easier it will be for everyone. It is the insistence that those who are drawn to gender norms that don't sit with their sex must become members of the other sex that needs to be reassessed, IMO. If men happily embroider doilies and women fix broken juggernauts* without others' judgement, then there would be no need for any of this, and feminists could concentrate on getting fair pay and decent childcare.

* (the first person who tries to demolish my argument by picking apart my obviously exaggerated examples of hypothetical gender-based behaviour loses any remaining credibility points )

GagaJo

What happens to trans women who haven't been able to totally transition due to the closing and limiting of services (due to the politicisation of trans support)? Are they stuck, with no where to be accepted, through no fault of their own? In some kind of gender limbo?

They'll be accepted in the sporting arena as per my post of 20.48. Do you spare any sympathy at all for the girls and women they will displace? Even if they're only part time women like Phillip/Pip Bunce they can appear on business woman of the year lists. Transwomen will be able to participate in all areas except where there are legal single sex exemptions.

I can’t see the need for a Men’s Rights movement in a patriarchal society. It is a bit of a contradiction.

What happens to trans women who haven't been able to totally transition due to the closing and limiting of services (due to the politicisation of trans support)? Are they stuck, with no where to be accepted, through no fault of their own? In some kind of gender limbo?

Sorry, 'which facilities' you were referring to.

I agree trisher.

I don't see how being inclusive of ALL women, means we hate them.

Ok then, which facilities did you mean? You appeared amused at the responses of those mentioning loos and changing rooms, but as you brought up the possible lack of access to 'facilities', I wondered, as you clearly didn't mean the things you were sneering at us for mentioning, you were referring to?

You just aren't listening, are you? I have said over and over that I am very happy to accept transwomen as women. What I am not happy to do is allow men who have not transitioned to simply have to say they are women and be able to access spaces where some women feel vulnerable, and others which have been set aside for women because of their under-representation.

You keep ignoring that, and coming back with what seems to be a script about transpeople being around since forever, how you don't ask what is between people's legs, how it is against human rights to ask that people get medical clearance before undertaking a medical procedure and so on. Oh, and that the rest of us don't understand feminism because we don't see it in the same way as you.

Doodledog

Funnily enough, Gaga, so did I.

trisher your comment about being st risk when using facilities is deeply ironic when you are prepared to have men in women’s facilities unchallenged. Frankly, your own lack of understanding of, or sympathy towards the concern of women on this thread concerns me. It reads like the views of someone who has internalised misogyny and is prepared to sweep aside the safety of women to appease a very number of men.

I would still like to know to which disabled facilities you referred upthread, please, if I haven’t missed an earlier response. .

It isn't ironic at all it is the logical outcome of saying people can't change sex. But I understand that it poses an unanswerable question for you.

I didn't mention disabled facilities you did. I said that if someone was unable to transition fully and have surgery because of a disability denying them access to the facilities of their chosen gender might be actionable under disability rights law. You then said they must use disabled facilities which isn't really an answer

As for internalised misogyny it amuses me that we' re not allowed to call the people posting on this thread anti-trans although they are imposing requirements and restrictions on trans people incompatible with human rights but you feel free to throw allegations of misogyny about simply because I'm willing to accept transwomen as women. Thanks sister.

I feel so sorry for those girls and young women who have trained hard for years to excel in their chosen sports, who will now have to shove over for a transwoman, who's male puberty has given them huge advantage in terms of heart size, lung capacity, longer stronger bones and more. Some of these transwomen have competed in the male class, but failed to make the grade, and now win medals in the female class. Already in the USA, where sports scholarships can be a way to gain a college education, they are losing out places to transwomen. Heartbreaking to have years of dedicated effort tossed aside because you no longer matter.

Fathers for Justice? Of whom Lawrence Fox (AKA Question Time racist) is a member.

Feminism works for equality for everyone. At least, my version of feminism does. For some, it excludes transwomen.

GagaJo

I agree. Wearing to reiterate that all women, including transwomen, are equal. But carry on SPLITTING the movement which is working for the patriarchy.

Mens Rights, aka MRA, is actually nothing of the sort MBHP1. They are hate organisations, frequented by incels (involuntary celebate) who hate women because they feel women owe them sex, but deny it to them.

Is MRA the only example of the Men’s Rights movement?

Missed a comma.

Splitting the movement, which results in aiding the patriarchy. As I think I said 2 or 3 pages back. Keep women in separate little groups, keep them infighting. Discourage inclusivity because together, they are powerful.

I agree. Wearing to reiterate that all women, including transwomen, are equal. But carry on SPLITTING the movement which is working for the patriarchy.

Mens Rights, aka MRA, is actually nothing of the sort MBHP1. They are hate organisations, frequented by incels (involuntary celebate) who hate women because they feel women owe them sex, but deny it to them.

GagaJo

'internalised misogyny'? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. I can’t think of what else to call the (clearly deeply held) view that all women should move aside to please a tiny number of men. And don’t obfuscate by saying that we shouldn’t move along but make room, as that just doesn’t wash.

Kook Aid has clearly been bought by the bucketload, and it’s incredibly wearing to have to go over and over the same ground.

What is the Men’s Rights movement purpose in our patriarchal world?

'internalised misogyny'? Seriously?

Funnily enough, Gaga, so did I.

trisher your comment about being st risk when using facilities is deeply ironic when you are prepared to have men in women’s facilities unchallenged. Frankly, your own lack of understanding of, or sympathy towards the concern of women on this thread concerns me. It reads like the views of someone who has internalised misogyny and is prepared to sweep aside the safety of women to appease a very number of men.

I would still like to know to which disabled facilities you referred upthread, please, if I haven’t missed an earlier response. .

It does worry me, the way trans issues seem to be dividing us at the moment. I thought intersectional feminism was about inclusivity. Equality for all. United we stand etc.

Doodledog I have re-read your 11.32 post and as far as I can see you offer no solution to the situation of men accessing women's spaces by claiming to be transmen in the process of transitioning. It would in my opinion be much easier to do this should you be a man intent on causing harm to women than it would to dress as a woman, and access those spaces. You wouldn' even need to change your clothes.

Gagajo the sheer lack of sympathy or understanding expressed in some of the posts on this thread upsets me sometimes. I will never understand why anyone would think it is OK to insist someone uses facilities where they are substantially at risk. I don't believe feminism separates oppressed people and establishes hierachies of suffering. It recognises all suffering, believes in equality and seeks to establish human rights for all minorities. Patriachy separates in order to dominate.

Let me make it clear. I regard someone that feels and identifies as female, as female, regardless of what is in their pants. THAT is none of my business.

GagaJo

*Rosie51*, If they would no longer be men if they have full surgical and hormone treatment, then you are by implication saying that anyone who declines surgery and hormone treatment remains a man. Therefore they shouldn't be in female only spaces. These are your words. Not mine. I didn't say them OR imply them.

trisher
I have experience of young people in this position (as I am sure you probably have). The happiest by far was the individual (16 yrs) who had started the process, with supportive parents. The two who were the most distressed were those who were unable to even talk to their parents. For one child, a very nice individual, it had caused so much mental torment, that expulsion from school was about to occur, due to the severity of behavioural problems resulting from the distress.

I am not saying anything should be forced on young people, of course not. But when no support is given it is horrifically damaging, often leading to suicide.

But you did. They are certainly not my words I referred to but were copied and pasted from your earlier comment of 13.25. I was rather surprised that you said it.

Does anyone think that men are prepared to grow breasts, take potentially damaging hormones, cut off their genitalia, have facial surgery to reduce the masculinisation of their facial features, have their adams apple shaved, all merely to enable them to enter women's spaces and threaten women?

No one has addressed the issue from that perspective on here, but on MN, it has been hinted at. That this is all a patriarchal plot for men (not that anyone would still be a man if they did all that) to take single sex spaces away from women OR to assault women.

Have I misunderstood and the bit in brackets which I have bolded is a quote from MN, not your words? If so I apologise, but it read to me that it was your aside comment.

Rosie51, If they would no longer be men if they have full surgical and hormone treatment, then you are by implication saying that anyone who declines surgery and hormone treatment remains a man. Therefore they shouldn't be in female only spaces. These are your words. Not mine. I didn't say them OR imply them.

trisher
I have experience of young people in this position (as I am sure you probably have). The happiest by far was the individual (16 yrs) who had started the process, with supportive parents. The two who were the most distressed were those who were unable to even talk to their parents. For one child, a very nice individual, it had caused so much mental torment, that expulsion from school was about to occur, due to the severity of behavioural problems resulting from the distress.

I am not saying anything should be forced on young people, of course not. But when no support is given it is horrifically damaging, often leading to suicide.