can we discuss feminism please

I think you can access a number of free views a month.

I am not denying that there are assaults on transpeople, which is reprehensible. The way to deal with that, however, is not to make vulnerable women even more vulnerable.

No one is suggesting trans individuals aren’t assaulted. If we are whatabouting - so are women, children, gay men, lesbians and especially in any predominantly white society, are bame individuals, immigrants, Roma people. Yes it’s all Bad but it doesn’t move this debate about the risks surrounding self ID and the loss of safe spaces, equality in employment / sport that women have fought for being lost

I read the beginning Doodledog, but it is behind a paywall. So I did a quick search to find it elsewhere and got page upon page about violent assaults on trans individuals.

I'm not sure I understand your point, but in most cases aren't disabled loos unisex?

So a disabled Trans women who is and has been living as a woman but is unable to have surgery must use male facilities. Isn't that discriminating against someone because of their disability?

GagaJo

^It is people who have not committed to a change but want to access female spaces when they are still male who are the problem. For balance, I would extend that to women wanting access to male spaces, but as far as I can tell, this is likely to be less of an issue because they are less likely to be physically threatening to men.^ Where has this happened?

Our whole system is designed around binary opposites. How much more priority is needed?

This is just the first thing to show up on a quick Google search

No. I am saying that they shouldn't access single sex spaces.

Doodledog full transitioning especially the operations involved requires an individual to be in very good health, sometimes it is difficult, if not impossible for someone to fully transition. So are you saying someone with health issues which prevent them having surgery must not be allowed to change their gender?

petunia if you believe transpeople have been around forever what do you think they wanted if not to be the gender they felt they were? Surely all modern science has done is provide the means to effect the change. Before it existed they went about their lives unchallenged living as the gender they believed they were.

It is people who have not committed to a change but want to access female spaces when they are still male who are the problem. For balance, I would extend that to women wanting access to male spaces, but as far as I can tell, this is likely to be less of an issue because they are less likely to be physically threatening to men. Where has this happened?

Our whole system is designed around binary opposites. How much more priority is needed?

GagaJo you truly believe there are more than two sexes? Every human being has been formed from two gametes joining together to form a zygote, a large nonmotile gamete (from the female) and a small motile gamete (from the male). These define the two sexes. DSDs do not indicate third, fourth or twentieth sexes. Gender, being an artificial concept can embody as many genders as you like.

How many times do we have to say it, though?

Transpeople who have transitioned should be accepted as their new gender, and use the facilities and spaces allocated to that gender. I don't think that anyone on here would object to that, although of course they should say if I am wrong in that assumption.

Non-transitioned people should use the facilities of the sex they were at birth, to prevent abuse of the system, and the chance of men claiming to be female in order to enter those facilities and be present in situations where natal women are vulnerable.

Self-ID should be the starting point for transition, if the self-identifying people want to be accepted into a different gender from their sex. If they do not wish to transition, they can wear what they like, adopt as many of the opposite sex/gender/whatever's norms as they wish, and ignore as many as they wish, just as people born into that gender do all the time, but they should not expect to be fully accepted as the opposite sex, because they have not transitioned and remain in their original body.

It is not transpeople who are a problem. It is not gender-fluid people who are a problem. It is not that people on this thread are transphobic or anti-trans.

It is people who have not committed to a change but want to access female spaces when they are still male who are the problem. For balance, I would extend that to women wanting access to male spaces, but as far as I can tell, this is likely to be less of an issue because they are less likely to be physically threatening to men.

In some cases this might result in awkward situations for the transwomen concerned, but with diplomacy and tact, they should be able to avoid sensitive areas where women are likely to feel vulnerable, and the awkwardness has to be weighed against the potential risk of having untransitioned men in single-sex female spaces.

ETA: If sex is binary for the vast majority of people, is this not a sensible basis on which be legislate? There is no need to be anything other than sensitive to the needs of those who do not fit this binary state, but the vast majority of the population should take priority.

I don't believe in sex as a binary. There are too many exceptions for it to be a total black and white reality. I think the vast majority of us fit the binary, but not all.

Should be an and between agree and that, but I think the meaning is clear!

That's fair enough but can I try to understand the thinkng of those who don't agree that people remain the sex they were born and that takes precedence.
As I understand it transwomen who look and present as women must use men's facilities because they remain men and allowing them into women's facilities opens these up to predatory men who may access them in order to assault women.
Transmen who look and present as men may use men's facilities but must also be allowed access to women's facilities because they remain women. But doesn't this open those facilities up to predatory men who won't even need to dress up-just say they are trans?
You may think my views on trans issues -that is self ID with a reasonable legislative procedure are weird and dangerous- but I think these ideas are discriminatory and dangerous.

opppps sorry-gender has replaced sex!

I fully accept that transpeople have been around forever. But the belief system that has sprung up in recent years is new. The belief that a person can change sex or that there are girl brains and boy brains, where sex has replaced gender. This is all new . And in many ways it doesn't really matter-until you stumble across one of those red lines. thats where the questions need to be asked

Many transwomen agree with sex segregation. And many think that womens spaces should only be open to certain transwomen, which is very interesting to watch, so many think Eddie Izzard for example should be excluded from those spaces. There is a complete diversity of opinion on this subject within the lgbt community, are they anti trans as well.

It's not anti trans it supporting the protection of sex segregated spaces.

individuals (my use of language AND typing are shocking at the moment, apologies)

Yes and I think all of the above are great. But anytime on there that anyone tries to add a different perspective, they are hounded.

I think we are talking about more than just feminism. I have always been feminist and have been both castigated and celebrated for it. So there is space within feminist to be accepting of trans individual and it is probably only in the last ten years or so that the feminist anti trans subsect has developed.

I responded to that question earlier gagajo. MM is much more feminist than GN so it centres women. It provided unending support to Keira Bell and to others like her, it provides a safe place for transwidows and for parents of gender non conforming children.

Yes, I do believe they see themselves as challenging a new belief system. But it really isn't a new system. It has always existed (just as with homosexuality, despite what Queen Victoria believed) and it is now that it is becoming more public.

People felt exactly this way when gay liberation began, during the civil rights movement.

Questioning is fine.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen the (treading VERY carefully again, let me know if I have failed!) extremity of feeling about trans issues on Mumsnet?

Gaga,” the subsection of feminists that are anti trans” you speak of, who are they?
Are these feminists really anti trans. Could they be described as standing up for women and questioning a brand new belief system. Asking difficult questions doesn't mean you are totally opposed to something.
Before all those red lines are crossed, I personally want to know how does this affect women and will it compromise their safety.

As an English teacher, I am embarrassed that I am not explaining myself in plain and clear English. I'll have another go, but please understand, I am not holding anyone on this forum to account.

I think the anti-trans movement (NOT us on here, WE are just discussing the issue. I mean the ACTUAL political protest) is a lot more aligned with the patriarchy than they like to let on. As I said above, the patriarchy I am sure, find those who do not easily fit into their binary system freakish. They may go along with the current political tide (a bit like the government having to appear to support the NHS at the moment) but really, the whole of the patriarchal system functions on the basis of binary gender opposites. It is part of how they maintain their 'men on top' power.

As I said above, if you ask the average man on the street what he thinks of a transwoman, he will NOT respond in a 'woke' way. In the same way that in the past, transwomen (because transpeople have always been there, just under cover a lot of the time) risked death if they did not manage to 'pass'.

Therefore, the subsection of feminists that are anti trans (again, let me state, we are having an exchange of opinion, I am not applying this to anyone on here) are actually helping to shore up the patriarchy's system of power, by insisting biology and gender cannot be expressed in many different acceptable ways.

The more people with differences of sex / gender / sexuality are quietly integrated into everyday life, the more the walls of 'the norm' (is that a 1984 quote?) will be broken down and we will have many more shades of sex & gender expression, in the way we are starting to get a much greater variety of expressions of sexuality.