The very nasty Laurence Fox

So if there was a lot of reporting of elderly people refusing ventilators, or other treatment, because they think that by doing that they are saving others, then some people might feel that it is incumbent on them to do the same.
Point taken, Alegrias

I hope I never need one but no, I wouldn't refuse treatment.

GillT57, yes, that was what I was thinking of when I posted upthread.

If, as lemongrove? says, he is just seeking publicity then he's succeeding.

Just another reminder about the general vile attention seeking of Laurence Fox: he is being sued by the head of Stonewall after Fox accused him, on twitter, of being a paedophile. There were others named in his accusations too. He has presumably made himself unemployable through his actions and rightly so.

Thanks Iam.

I think Felipe may be in France. Many other countries have mandatory mask wearing outside now.

I'm confused by your post felice. You say your neighbour was "coming up the hill" and not wearing a mask. It isn't mandatory to wear masks when outside.

I think I haven't explained myself properly Call. Many people, including you, have said that they would give up their place in the vaccination queue in favour of younger, more economically active people, which goes to show how people want to do the right thing. That's not a criticism, but I'm trying to say that people will put others first if they think its the right thing to do.

So if there was a lot of reporting of elderly people refusing ventilators, or other treatment, because they think that by doing that they are saving others, then some people might feel that it is incumbent on them to do the same.

It also means that other life threatening illnesses can be treated in a timely manner, so it benefits everyone.

"What about you, growstuff? Would you demand your life be saved over your children's?"

If a gunman was going to shoot one of us, whatever I said, then yes I would want my children to be saved because I have motherly instinct. I don't think their lives are any more valuable than mine - and I don't think they think like that either.

However, that's a hypothetical situation. Vaccinating me would have a greater effect than vaccinating either of them. They would be less likely to suffer severe symptoms and the healthcare system would have greater capacity to treat them, should they become ill. If the most vulnerable have all been vaccinated, there's more chance that society can resume more quickly.

But once we start to talk about people dying because they don't think their lives are worth as much as somebody younger, it does set a precedent that people might think they have to follow.

I didn't say I thought I was worth less than someone younger, just that I'm not working in a hospital or other frontline service.
If it means waiting another couple of weeks or so, I'm happy with that.

The other argument is illogical.
In fact, the 2 year old is more likely to have a chance if all adults are vaccinated.

Callistemon

^Look at the number of people on here who say they would rather give their vaccination slot to somebody younger and more economically active.^

I did say that Alegrias but that is because I can stay away from other people.
Those on the front line cannot, especially healthcare workers.
It appears that the Welsh Government think the same way.

Let's not get into the argument about who should be vaccinated first, I think that's been covered a lot in other threads. (I know I brought it up.) I believe that the Indonesian government are taking the approach that the young and active need to be vaccinated first, so we will see how that goes.

But once we start to talk about people dying because they don't think their lives are worth as much as somebody younger, it does set a precedent that people might think they have to follow.

MissAdventure

Death is inevitable to all of us, but nobody welcomes the idea of popping off early due to covid.

Quite agree but that wasn't really the point of the conversation on the programme!

But seeing as I'm no better then Hitler I'll bow out o-0

Sumption's background is as an academic in mediaeval history. From a historical perspective, the Black Death was the catalyst for great social change and the shortage of labour hastened the end of the feudal system. With hindsight, it's a valid argument (not that there was any treatment for the plague), but society has changed in 700 years. Medicine and science mean that we have some control over nature and a responsibility to use it for good. Presumably, Sumption would consider babies born with disabilities to be of less value.

As has already been pointed out:

The current situation is different, if a 93 year old is vaccinated it doesn't mean a 2 year old will die.

One is not consequent upon the other.

In fact, the 2 year old is more likely to have a chance if all adults are vaccinated.
Why would the resources be limited? They are manufacturing vaccines as fast as they can.

Death is inevitable to all of us, but nobody welcomes the idea of popping off early due to covid.

As some of you will have read we had some Police problems with regards to masks last week here.
Well, I was leaving the building!! to go to the wee shop yesterday afternoon when I noticed a young woman who lives on the 2nd floor coming up the hill.
No mask, when I questioned her she was really rude and said as she had a cup of coffee, sealed, she did not need to wear a mask, but, it was in her pocket.
She and her partner just moved in in June and there have been some problems with them.
SIL had put a notice in to each of the apartments and I wonder if she took the mask off when she saw me.
Mid twenties and just daft.

Look at the number of people on here who say they would rather give their vaccination slot to somebody younger and more economically active.

I did say that Alegrias but that is because I can stay away from other people.
Those on the front line cannot, especially healthcare workers.
It appears that the Welsh Government think the same way.

growstuff

No, I don't know it Lucretzia. My understanding is this lady has terminal bowel cancer. Her life is not worth less than anybody else's life.

Did you watch the programme? Not the small clip that has been shown?

Of course her life isn't worth less than anyone else's. She's been a fabulous campaigner for bowel cancer awareness.

However, if you asked her should her life be saved over her children's I think I know what her answer would be.

Maybe I'm wrong

What about you, growstuff? Would you demand your life be saved over your children's?

In a world of limited resources, not just in the UK, these decisions have to be taken.

DNR's exist for a reason

Death is inevitable.

It appears that most people would opt to save our children/grandchildren and would rather die than them

Of course, but it's not a case of either/or.

It sounds quite sinister

growstuff

No, I don't know it Lucretzia. My understanding is this lady has terminal bowel cancer. Her life is not worth less than anybody else's life.

Hear hear growstuff I worry that reports like these are going to make older people feel that they have to refuse treatment because they would be saving the young. Look at the number of people on here who say they would rather give their vaccination slot to somebody younger and more economically active.

To whom are these people less valuable?

It's eugenics and most people would disagree.

This isn't the first time Sumption has talked about lives in the abstract and caused offence.

The conversation on the show had evolved from Covid though

This bloke is anti-lockdown and they'd started to discuss value of life

He then pointed out that older people are less valuable Probably not the best way of putting it but hard to argue with.

It appears that most people would opt to save our children/grandchildren and would rather die than them

Piers Morgan was doing his usual shrieking at Sumption this morning. Deliberately ignoring the man's point.

Nothing new there!

No, I don't know it Lucretzia. My understanding is this lady has terminal bowel cancer. Her life is not worth less than anybody else's life.

Exactly Callistemon.

The current situation is different, if a 93 year old is vaccinated it doesn't mean a 2 year old will die. The younger generation has been shown to be less susceptible to the virus and on the whole if they do catch it they tend to not get it as badly as an older person

Yes, that is an extremely simplistic view, Oldwoman70.

A 2 year old will not receive the vaccine, but probably will in a few years time if Covid is still around (which I am sure it will be as it mutates).

However, the more older people are vaccinated, the less pressure on the health services; the fewer people who become very ill with Covid, the quicker life can return to normal. Consequently the 2 year old will have a more normal future to look forward to.