British class system

Ooops Witzend. That is because I am not posh!

The problem is, Gagajo, you have go to be in that very narrow band of class obsessed to know there are any differences between the words you cite. I have used everyone of them at sometime in my life.

In my childhood we had paper serviettes and fabric napkins, now everybody calls them napkins. I haven't seen or heard anyone talk about serviettes for decades. I always understood the drawing room trio of words to describe entirely different types of room - and where does 'sitting room' fit in.

These silly little delineators of 'class' just show how ridiculous the idea of a class system is, the vast majority of people neither know anything about them, or care.

As for ^ It is a very complex system and because we are an old culture, it is very finely tuned and at times, very subtle^ that just proves it is all rubbish 99.9% of the population get on with their lives without knowing or caring a toss about these ^subtleties. It is the obsession of a tiny minority. usually class obsessed members of the 'middle class' who think they are sliding down the socio-economic slope. and cling onto these strange differences of nomenclature and probably crook their little finger when drinking their tea out of (only ever) bone china cups.

As so many has said, there is no country anywhere that does not have a hierarchical social system.

Why in ths current age a small group of people have felt a need to drag it out of the dustbin it was chucked into after WW2, I have never understood.

My mother practically had a degree in U and non-U, Callistemon, and according to her, sitting room was perfectly U.
We had napkins and a lavatory too - I always hated that word, still connected in my mind with freezing cold and hard Bronco paper. I can still almost smell that particular loo paper!!

My folks would have had a pink fit if we’d ever said ‘toilet’ so it was a great relief to me at the teen stage to discover that ‘loo’ was an acceptable alternative.
My father would often call it the bog, too. Or just say, when he went off for a ‘sit’ with the paper, ‘I am going to commune with my soul.’ ?

First smile of my day at your father’s ‘I am going to commune with my soul’ Witzend!

These silly little delineators of 'class' just show how ridiculous the idea of a class system is, the vast majority of people neither know anything about them, or care.

Ah, but to those who aspire they are important, hence the discussion on GN about what we call the communal room in our homes.

When I was younger, I worked for a minor aristo family. They had a friend who had 'married up' and the poor woman would berate her children if they used the wrong word. They were NOT allowed to say toilet or lavatory. Only the U slang, loo.

We usually use paper napkins (the thought of all that searching and ironing linen ones fills me with horrir).

Sometimes we use kitchen roll.


Witzend my mother had worked for some rather "posh" families before she married.
When I married, I discovered the word "heads" (a ship's loo).

Starching not searching!

Peope aspire to bigger houses, a huge kitchen, more land, better car etc etc. Do they really aspire to move from a lounge to a living room to a drawing room, or are they just happy to have a sitting room?

I have only ever come across one social divide in my life - and that was in the army and the line was the one between officers and men. the reason for it was said to be for disciplinary reasons, but it extended to families and from the time I first went to an army school, I rebelled and chose my friends from those I liked without wondering which side of the divide their father was. By the time I was 9 had decided that I would never ever marry anyone serving in the armed forces, just because of the limits it would put on my life. Being labelled as an 'officers daughter' was quite bad enough. Things have changed a lot since then.

But beyond that, I cannot say that antiquated ideas about class have ever impinged on ly life, or anybody elses I know.

I love the idea that you can change class. The ultimate example is Kate, duchess of Cambridge, whose great grandfather was a coal miner and her son will be king. As long as you are happy and have a good crowd of friends does class really matter?

Agree with you PECS that is what I have found. I guess over there we would be described as some sort of middle class intelligentsia because my husband is a prof but it doesn’t wash here and we avoid even mentioning it. Several members of my family are uni profs but we don’t talk or dress or act ‘posh’ Why would we ? No one gives a rats, either.

I don’t know why people so often think (or perhaps ‘like to think’ might be more accurate) that it’s just a British thing. The ‘markers’ obviously vary, but it’s certainly a thing in America, otherwise why would they talk of ‘trailer trash’, living ‘on the wrong side of the tracks’ or disparagingly of people who live in the ‘projects’ (i.e. social housing) which is certainly a ‘thing’ where my sister’s lived for many decades, near Boston.

And French people can be exceedingly snobby - I’ve known a few of those. Talk about looking down their noses at anyone who lived in the wrong arrondissement of Paris! But that’s just one fairly recent example.

OK, it was long ago now, but dh and I, living in Cyprus at the time, were once on a taxi tour of parts of Lebanon and Syria. Two taxis, just us and 3 French women, one pair of middle aged friends and a single of about the same age.

We found it very funny how the single woman firmly and very sniffily distanced herself from the other two, who were very friendly and good natured, evidently out to have as much fun as possible and didn’t care who knew it. At the time, if I’d had to give a U.K. equivalent description, I might have said two Blackpool landladies out on a spree.

Number three would have nothing to do with them! She made sure every time to get in the same taxi as me and dh.

Its impinges on pretty much everyone as the figures that Trisher gave indicated, Johnson for example had inordinately better life chances that someone born in Walker (one of the most deprived areas in my region).

About thirty years ago I was told by a farmer's wife that her children had to go to private schools because if they went to the local school their classmates might be the children of the farm labourers that they employed and it would be intolerable if these children did better than her children.

Fast forward to now. Her son has taken over the farm. His children go to the local school but they don't have to worry about the clever children of the farm labourers because they don't employ any. Just as well because, having spent huge sums on mechaninsing the farm, they could not afford the fees for private schools.

There is a thread on this site about hygiene in the 50's and 60's.
If you grew up in a village during that time the class system would have affected your life and colored your views.
Class and religion were considered prevalent factors for child rearing.
Sunday school in our village school room followed by a church service.
Where we had retired colonels and their families in the first rows, in the rows behind local farmers, then church wardens and any local trades, then blue collar workers, nurses etc, then home owners, then council house families. These families usually had 6 to 8 children so filled the pews.
The positives of having to go to church every Sunday were having to do a short reading once every six weeks. Excellent for confidence and public speaking. And it ingrained a good sense of right or wrong.
Often return to this village for a walk (when restrictions allow) and the divide between rich and poor looks to be a wider divide than ever!

Whether you are a multimillionare or on the minimum wage it`s what type of person you are that makes a difference.
Being kind/friendly/helpfull and caring is what makes a person.
I know a few well off people who are very nice and some who are so up themselves they make me sick.
And some who live hand to mouth who would give you their last penny.

I think people in deprived areas often do not succeed because everyone keeps telling them that they won't. It would be much better if more time was spent telling them they can succeed if they make the effort.

My Irish immigrant grandparents made their way up in the world, and so did so many Irish immigrants, irish names can be found at every level of British life - and Scots and Welsh names , because as a matter or course we took no notice of anything any English person told us.

I think I have told this story before on GN but it illustrates the topic perfectly.

My Dad was a clever, well read man, who's hobbies were photography, painting and golf. As a child he attended the local school from aged 5 to 15. He was then encouraged to move to the "Academy" to take Highers but instead chose to follow his mates & brothers into an apprenticeship with the local precision engineering company.

Along came WW2, he volunteered and was sent to somewhere in England for interview. The panel were very impressed with his engineering qualifications but, being upperclass English could not differentiate his common or garden working class Scottish accent from posh Scottish. They asked what School he had attended and he truthfully replied the Grange (an area based name) then they asked if it was a Private or Public School? and again he replied truthfully that it was Public (ie Council run, open to all children in the area.) Within days he got his papers and train ticket to report to ????? for officer training in the Royal Marines. His family and mates thought this was hilarious, as my Dad had the reputation of becoming seasick when crossing a puddle.

His glory did not last long, because his employers applied for an 'essential worker exemption' which was granted to them and Dad resigned himself to a quiet war at home....... A few months passed, then he received another letter, complete with travel pass, ordering him to report to an airfield near London. He spent most of the War in London, as a civilian, ( handed white feathers, etc.) working on Top Secret War Work. I suppose I can say now that he was recruited as the technician in a team designing and making tiny lightweight engines to power ejector seats in bombers & fighter planes.

Far from having a quiet war, he survived many air raids, was strafed in a train and returned to his digs one night after a 14 hour shift to find the whole street flattened by a land mine - he was left in his dungarees with 10bob in his pocket and everything else gone. When War ended, those that had served in the forces were handed their old jobs back, + a set of civilian clothing. Not so for Dad, - nearly an Officer, then just unemployed/Working Class.

Like Granny23's Dad, my Father in law also went to a Scottish public school. He did well and gained professional qualifications, then after the war applied for a senior post in an English company. On the application form he listed his school as "..... Academy, Public School". It was only after being in the new job for about six months that one of his fellow directors put his hand on his shoulder and said in a very plummy voice "We public school chaps must stick together" and the penny dropped!

Trisher's post says it all, those who think that our class system is a thing of the past and really does not matter are wrong. Equally those who have the power and wealth are quite happy for people to continue thinking that way. Nobody ever gave power away freely.

GagaJo

As part of my English teaching, I have to teach students to identify the audience of any text they read. So for example, the audience for Shakespeare would be quite different to the audience for the poetry of Carol Ann Duffy. The use of the terms, working / middle / upper class are easy for students to use. I have also taught them the socioeconomic groups as an alternative way to describe people (there are other categories such as this-I don't pretend to be an expert in which is best).

AB-Higher & intermediate managerial, administrative, professional occupations
C1-Supervisory, clerical & junior managerial, administrative, professional occupations
C2-Skilled manual occupations
DE-Semi-skilled & unskilled manual occupations, Unemployed and lowest grade occupations

It IS interesting to see how they classify audiences though. In addition to class they can consider age, ethnicity, nationality etc.

I heard a criticism of this system, along the lines of:

A duke's daughter, who doesn't need to work because of her trust fund, runs off with a lorry driver. Socially, she's bettering herself, because he's a grade C2, and she's a D/E.

lemongrove socialism was around long before Karl Marx ,the socialist movement that started the Labour party was based on Christian principles,love thy neighbour,feed the hungry ,care for the sick the poor the vulnerable.,The kind of behaviour you would expect in a civilised country.
Scottish socialism was around from before the French revolution ,

Heres Burns A Mans A Man for Aw That

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

sorry seem to have lost the first verse ..oops

Manners Maketh Man, my old dad used to say. Nothing to do with how much or what a person possesses.

This is the only time I tend to curl my lip, otherwise I can accept anyone at all. No manners--not worth knowing.

Yeah, Dragonella. I don't agree with any one system of classification. There are lots although broadly speaking, I think the premise is the same.

Anyone heard of the sociological term, 'skidder'? A person that is downwardly mobile. Opposite of a social climber I guess.

M0nica I think people in deprived areas often do not succeed because everyone keeps telling them that they won't. It would be much better if more time was spent telling them they can succeed if they make the effort.
I'd love to know who these people are. Having spent a large proportion of my teaching career in some of the most deprived areas I only ever heard encouragement and support offered to children there. Of course if you haven't enough to eat, your famly life is chaotic and debt ridden and your parents have drug or alcohol problems you start from a much lower level of self-belief and confidence than those born into privilege.

There are a lot of posts about individual famly members who have risen in the class system, and of course their are successes. But the general trend is no longer of working class progress, we are now stuck, the gap between the richest and the poorest is widening and few rise up the scale.