Derek Chauvin trial

Lemon and 25 Avalon- points taken., total agreement from me that neck kneeling is wrong.
Callistemon is right to point to the gun culture in the US.

Police officers in the US quite often kill unarmed suspects, in the main by shooting them.If they yell ‘stop...police!’or ‘stop or I’ll shoot’ and the suspect runs, then they do shoot.This includes suspects such as teenage shoplifters!
As in the link I posted above about an innocent woman who called for help being shot dead by a policeman, even those who are not suspects are shot by police.

I agree, kneeling on suspect's neck should be banned. It sounds more like a form of torture than restraint.

I agree with your earlier post JustMe if Floyd's medical history is in question then all the previous complaints about Chauvin should be questioned.

suziewoozie thank you for that link. As you say, it is indeed a chilling read.

It's just beyond me why he needed to be knelt on for that long. There were 4 police officers there, he was handcuffed, he was on the floor, and they had mace and guns. The police were not in danger.
Under 6 minutes to GF being unresponsive, yet another 3 minutes of kneeling. Maybe at the 6 minute point, he could've been saved but no, he was inert and unconscious and Chauvin was still holding him down.

Iam64 I have put no more emphasis on what the defence say to what the prosecution say. This should be a fair trial remember. But as I have said before whatever the outcome of this trial police methods of restraint need to be looked at and amended. Neck kneeling was an authorised method of restraint so there is responsibility there by the police authority who authorised its use.

Good posts Eloethan and Monica about police/ training in the US.Nothing like here, thankfully.

Iam yes, everyone is entitled to be arrested with minimum force, but if approved methods of containing and subduing a
Suspected criminal ( kneeling on the neck included) by police officers is allowed if they think the situation warrants it, then I can’t see that a jury can find him guilty, certainly not of murder. What needs to change is taking away the right for officers to do this, and substituting some other method which can’t have a lethal outcome.
Police officers in the US quite often kill unarmed suspects, in the main by shooting them.If they yell ‘stop...police!’or ‘stop or I’ll shoot’ and the suspect runs, then they do shoot.This includes suspects such as teenage shoplifters!
It all comes about, as we know from being a society where it’s legal to be armed to the teeth.

25Avalon yes, we need to know all the details, but I think that the practise of neck kneeling is always going to now and then cause death ( even if health factors are contributing to that) so they should stop doing it.Once a suspect is down, handcuffs can be used.This case is an awful one.

25Avalon and JenniferEccles, you seem to be putting considerable emphasis on the attempts being made by the defence to refute the murder/manslaughter charges.
Of course, everyone is entitled to a fair trial. Everyone is also entitled to be arrested with minimum force.

I agree 25Avalon
The important thing is that it is a fair trial with all the relevant aspects of Floyd’s health and lifestyle choices explored.
Surprisingly the first autopsy report could find no evidence of asphyxiation being the cause of death but a further one had a different result.
Which was correct?
That’s for the experts to decide when the evidence is presented at the trial.

Also I said to me.

Sorry Suziewoozie I don’t agree. Floyd had drugs in his system and a heart condition which could be the main cause of death or even the only cause of death or Chauvin’s knee could be the main cause. I don’t know I’m not a pathologist and this will all be presented in evidence for the jury to decide and then the pathologists report could make the difference between the degree of murder or manslaughter.

25Avalon

Suziewoozie this shows how different the policing is in the UK. Too many equate us as being the same. Thank goodness we are not. To me it is irrelevant if Floyd was black or white or a criminalor if Chauvin is black or white. What is relevant is that the facts come out and guilt or innocence is decided on the facts. To me that is justice. Aside from that this case has thrown up racial issues and policing methods which should be addressed.

There's much evidence that the US system - , education, housing, employment , police, courts etc are riven with racism. It’s absolutely relevant that George Floyd was black - it was relevant from the day he was born. ‘Facts ‘ are interpreted through the prism of racism which underpins whatever justice means

"It wont change without a lot of noise" I agree Summerlove but you can make a lot of noise with protests, you don't have to riot.

Suziewoozie this shows how different the policing is in the UK. Too many equate us as being the same. Thank goodness we are not. To me it is irrelevant if Floyd was black or white or a criminalor if Chauvin is black or white. What is relevant is that the facts come out and guilt or innocence is decided on the facts. To me that is justice. Aside from that this case has thrown up racial issues and policing methods which should be addressed.

This is a chilling read

www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2020/06/12/policing-should-not-be-about-generating-profit/?sh=207a09757356

Thanks Monica for that summary. BLM and the talk of defunding the police in the US is important. The police force is armed with military style weapons. There is little government or state funding for agencies that could reduce crime and drug addiction. Funding for Children’s Services is raised as it would be for charities not statutory agencies as here in the UK

The trial already looks like the OJ Simpson trial.. let’s hope it isn’t a similar travesty

Yes Monica. Good summary. Just because we have a similar language, far to many people think the various institutions in both societies are somehow similar. As well as the police, the whole criminal justice system is vastly different with many elected posts at all levels and a.completely different culture. I think I’m a bit more sceptical than you about changes in policing resulting from mobile phone footage and a greater push towards equal rights before the law.

What we are seeing now and with Georgia leading the charge is a renewed attack on voting rights. If you increase voter suppression this means black voter suppression ( in the main) and if you have no vote, you can’t vote for the local sherif or any of the other elected posts in the CJS so good luck with equal access to justice.

I read an article recently about the place of the police in American society and it is a very different to our police force and there attitude to policing. Policing is very local and, as Eloethan says, the way policemen are recruited and trained would not be acceptable in the UK. The police also have far more independence than the police in this country. There is a lack of surveillance and control from higher up the governance hierarchy. This gives them a sense of impunity. What they says goes, and you do not lightly challenge them.

The other big difference is that police are seen as almost a branch of the military, look at the way, the National Guard is called in to enforce the police when faced witht events beyond their control. They are armed in an armed society and can and do use weapons that in this country are confined to the military.

Up until now the US police have been a law unto themselves and have faced no real challenge because of the power they wield. The mobile phone with camera has changed all this. This and another renewed wave for equal rights before the law, regardless of colour and ethnicity.

What if it were middle to late aged white women being profiled and targeted?

Would you (general you) sit down quietly and complain about riots then?

Allow victims to be blamed?

This is a human rights issue. A civil liberties issue.

It won’t change without a lot of noise.

Well, I hope he is found guilty.

However, I think this sort of vicious behaviour is not an isolated incident and, in my view, suggests an accepted culture of violence, threats and intimidation in law enforcement. As with the Rodney King scandal many years ago, this case has been particularly highlighted because of the filmed footage, which was appalling to see.

It is important that this man faces justice, but just putting one man away will not stop this sort of brutality and discrimination. I believe that in many states in the US the recruitment and training of police officers is far from rigorous and it seems to me that the whole system of recruitment and training needs to be completely overhauled.

Smileless2012

Well I'll disagree with any riots Summerlove. George Floyd's family spoke out against the riots following his death.

That's how the legal process works isn't it suziewoozie. The defence and prosecution have the right to ask for evidence to be ruled as inadmissible with the judge having the final say.

I don't agree that anything can be said about the victim of a homicide without contradiction. That is what cross examination is for and of course the prosecution can call family members and friends to contradict any 'evidence' produced by the defence.

It’s not that simple sadly.

Well I'll disagree with any riots Summerlove. George Floyd's family spoke out against the riots following his death.

That's how the legal process works isn't it suziewoozie. The defence and prosecution have the right to ask for evidence to be ruled as inadmissible with the judge having the final say.

I don't agree that anything can be said about the victim of a homicide without contradiction. That is what cross examination is for and of course the prosecution can call family members and friends to contradict any 'evidence' produced by the defence.

Summerlove

JenniferEccles

I may have read it anywhere, even on here at the time.
I am not someone who demands evidence or links to prove everything others post, unlike some on here!

Well why the heck not.
If you were going to “things as though they are fact, you should probably find out the truth first

I love the implied criticism of someone who demands evidence or links to prove everything ???

Smileless2012

I mean both Summerlove that police will be able to kill black people with impunity and that there will be riots, not protests but riots.

I'm sure the defence prosecution will bring up Chauvin's record JustMe they'd be severely lacking if they don't.

If there are riots, I’m not going to be able to disagree with them.

JenniferEccles

I may have read it anywhere, even on here at the time.
I am not someone who demands evidence or links to prove everything others post, unlike some on here!

Well why the heck not.
If you were going to “things as though they are fact, you should probably find out the truth first